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	<title>Comments on: SUPPORT THE TROOPS: BASH THE PENTAGON</title>
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	<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/</link>
	<description>Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2026 09:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: DaveG</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6466</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6466</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think you're lending an awful lot of credence to and oft-discredited source.  Absent a more credible source, I believe that no matter what their bureaucratic function, military procurement understands the demand and does their level best to meet it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think you&#8217;re lending an awful lot of credence to and oft-discredited source.  Absent a more credible source, I believe that no matter what their bureaucratic function, military procurement understands the demand and does their level best to meet it.</p>
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		<title>By: NIF</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6464</link>
		<dc:creator>NIF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6464</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Viscount of Women's Prison Movies&lt;/strong&gt;

Today's dose of NIF - News, Interesting &#38; Funny ... MONDAY, Monday .. monday</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Viscount of Women&#8217;s Prison Movies</strong></p>
<p>Today&#8217;s dose of NIF - News, Interesting &amp; Funny &#8230; MONDAY, Monday .. monday</p>
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		<title>By: Fritz</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6306</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6306</guid>
		<description>One word to explain this:  Halliburton.  Lest we forget OVERCHARGES!  I agree, who cares what the financial costs are, just get it done.  Unfortunately this is another example where the greatness of our transparency can be used as a partisan weapon to demoralize our efforts.  Why didn't Iraqi police have firearms, 90 day competitive bidding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One word to explain this:  Halliburton.  Lest we forget OVERCHARGES!  I agree, who cares what the financial costs are, just get it done.  Unfortunately this is another example where the greatness of our transparency can be used as a partisan weapon to demoralize our efforts.  Why didn&#8217;t Iraqi police have firearms, 90 day competitive bidding.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6305</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6305</guid>
		<description>While none of this is good it is par for the course.  We have never fought a war in which our troops had exactly what was needed either in equipment or tactics.  The thing you have to understand is neither did the enemy...We have won because our soldiers were better at adapting and making what they had work.  During WWII our tanks were no match for the German Tiger tank but the troops figured out how to destroy them.  Our troops in Iraq are doing the same.  Ever heard of "Yankee ingenuity"  That is what wins wars not a procurement system or a Secretary of Defense.

In the entire history of warfare there has never been an amry that went in equiped like they should have been and my guess is there never will be.  War always comes down to which group of soldiers makes the best use of what they have.  Who best minimizes the bad and maximizes the good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While none of this is good it is par for the course.  We have never fought a war in which our troops had exactly what was needed either in equipment or tactics.  The thing you have to understand is neither did the enemy&#8230;We have won because our soldiers were better at adapting and making what they had work.  During WWII our tanks were no match for the German Tiger tank but the troops figured out how to destroy them.  Our troops in Iraq are doing the same.  Ever heard of &#8220;Yankee ingenuity&#8221;  That is what wins wars not a procurement system or a Secretary of Defense.</p>
<p>In the entire history of warfare there has never been an amry that went in equiped like they should have been and my guess is there never will be.  War always comes down to which group of soldiers makes the best use of what they have.  Who best minimizes the bad and maximizes the good.</p>
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		<title>By: Fresh Air</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6107</link>
		<dc:creator>Fresh Air</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6107</guid>
		<description>Rick--

This is one of those stories that I can't quite believe. Remember the "courageous" soldier who raised his hand at a (Tenn?) National Guard meeting with Rumsfeld and asked why his jeeps weren't up-armored? Rumsfeld, floored, said "You go to war with the army that you have..." It later turned out that 90-some percent of the Hummvees in the soldier's unit &lt;i&gt;had&lt;/i&gt; in fact been up-armored or would be by the time he shipped out, and that the question was planted by a partisan in an effort to make the administration look bad. Given the NYT's past estrangement from the truth in all things military or related to Don Rumsfeld, I am not willing to buy this until I see further proof.

I will say, however, if it turns out to be true and if turns out that Pentagon bureaucracy is at fault, this would be a crime.

Now then, allow me to offer a modest defense of the failure to up-armor every Hummvee in theatre. As &lt;b&gt;Linda&lt;/b&gt; points out, there seem to be enough Hummers available (at least there are now) for soldiers on patrol to take one with auxilliary plating. Second, there is a significant trade-off between weight, speed and maneuverability. Many soldiers prefer speed in Iraq, like &lt;a href="http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/06/walking-line-ii.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Command Sgt. Major Michael Mellinger&lt;/a&gt;. Also keep in mind the Hummvee is a glorified Jeep, not a APC. Furthermore, if an RPG or large IED can disable an APC or even a tank, how would it ever be possible or practical to protect soldiers with extra plating on a Hummer? I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile exercise to try, but I don't believe it's a perfect or even mostly perfect defense against IEDs.

One another thing. You are quite right about the stupidity of kitting the armor. Evidently the Pentagon has &lt;a href="http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=77648&#38;p=irol-newsArticle&#38;ID=684321&#38;highlight=" rel="nofollow"&gt;figured it out&lt;/a&gt;, too. Better late than never.

The company, by the way, is not a pipsqueak; it is a division of &lt;a href="http://www.armorholdings.com/home/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Armor Holdings&lt;/a&gt;, a $1 billion public company traded on the NYSE (AHI).

Anyway, I don't think the war planners are at fault, given the serial assumptions one would have to make about the insurgency to divine that up-armor kits would be needed throughout the theatre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick&#8211;</p>
<p>This is one of those stories that I can&#8217;t quite believe. Remember the &#8220;courageous&#8221; soldier who raised his hand at a (Tenn?) National Guard meeting with Rumsfeld and asked why his jeeps weren&#8217;t up-armored? Rumsfeld, floored, said &#8220;You go to war with the army that you have&#8230;&#8221; It later turned out that 90-some percent of the Hummvees in the soldier&#8217;s unit <i>had</i> in fact been up-armored or would be by the time he shipped out, and that the question was planted by a partisan in an effort to make the administration look bad. Given the NYT&#8217;s past estrangement from the truth in all things military or related to Don Rumsfeld, I am not willing to buy this until I see further proof.</p>
<p>I will say, however, if it turns out to be true and if turns out that Pentagon bureaucracy is at fault, this would be a crime.</p>
<p>Now then, allow me to offer a modest defense of the failure to up-armor every Hummvee in theatre. As <b>Linda</b> points out, there seem to be enough Hummers available (at least there are now) for soldiers on patrol to take one with auxilliary plating. Second, there is a significant trade-off between weight, speed and maneuverability. Many soldiers prefer speed in Iraq, like <a href="http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/06/walking-line-ii.html" rel="nofollow">Command Sgt. Major Michael Mellinger</a>. Also keep in mind the Hummvee is a glorified Jeep, not a APC. Furthermore, if an RPG or large IED can disable an APC or even a tank, how would it ever be possible or practical to protect soldiers with extra plating on a Hummer? I&#8217;m not saying it isn&#8217;t a worthwhile exercise to try, but I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s a perfect or even mostly perfect defense against IEDs.</p>
<p>One another thing. You are quite right about the stupidity of kitting the armor. Evidently the Pentagon has <a href="http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=77648&amp;p=irol-newsArticle&amp;ID=684321&amp;highlight=" rel="nofollow">figured it out</a>, too. Better late than never.</p>
<p>The company, by the way, is not a pipsqueak; it is a division of <a href="http://www.armorholdings.com/home/" rel="nofollow">Armor Holdings</a>, a $1 billion public company traded on the NYSE (AHI).</p>
<p>Anyway, I don&#8217;t think the war planners are at fault, given the serial assumptions one would have to make about the insurgency to divine that up-armor kits would be needed throughout the theatre.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda from Whittier, California</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-6030</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda from Whittier, California</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-6030</guid>
		<description>I hang out on the Milblogs a lot.  Granted I don't see them all, but the ones I do see say this in not a problem.  They never leave their FOB in anything but up-armoured Hummvees or regular armoured vehicles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hang out on the Milblogs a lot.  Granted I don&#8217;t see them all, but the ones I do see say this in not a problem.  They never leave their FOB in anything but up-armoured Hummvees or regular armoured vehicles.</p>
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		<title>By: Redhand</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-5843</link>
		<dc:creator>Redhand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-5843</guid>
		<description>Gee, I heard Rumsfeld on Meet the Press this morning and he felt there were no problems with armored vehicles in Iraq.

In fact, he wouldn't admit to a single administration mistake in the war in Iraq.  According to Rummy, all mistakes are explained by the fact that "no war plan survives the first encounter with the enemy."

Make no mistake.  I'm clearly conservative, and feel we have to support the war to the hilt in order to get the job done.  BUT, sophistry in support of administration policies (and mistakes) has its limits.

Consider the breathtakingly broad possibilities present in free use of the "no war plan survives the first encounter with the enemy."  As applied by Rummy, it serves as an excuse for no planning at all.

Moreover, it misses the essential point here: the need for adequate armor isn't a "first brush" problem.  It's been obvious for months.  Rummy's response is really another  "you go to war with the army you have" BS excuse.

The lack of proper armor in this war will go down in history as a scandal as great as the non-functioning Mk. 13 torpedo in the Pacific at the beginning of WWII.  There, as here, it's the servicemen in the field who are fixing the problem.

But that doesn't make it right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, I heard Rumsfeld on Meet the Press this morning and he felt there were no problems with armored vehicles in Iraq.</p>
<p>In fact, he wouldn&#8217;t admit to a single administration mistake in the war in Iraq.  According to Rummy, all mistakes are explained by the fact that &#8220;no war plan survives the first encounter with the enemy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Make no mistake.  I&#8217;m clearly conservative, and feel we have to support the war to the hilt in order to get the job done.  BUT, sophistry in support of administration policies (and mistakes) has its limits.</p>
<p>Consider the breathtakingly broad possibilities present in free use of the &#8220;no war plan survives the first encounter with the enemy.&#8221;  As applied by Rummy, it serves as an excuse for no planning at all.</p>
<p>Moreover, it misses the essential point here: the need for adequate armor isn&#8217;t a &#8220;first brush&#8221; problem.  It&#8217;s been obvious for months.  Rummy&#8217;s response is really another  &#8220;you go to war with the army you have&#8221; BS excuse.</p>
<p>The lack of proper armor in this war will go down in history as a scandal as great as the non-functioning Mk. 13 torpedo in the Pacific at the beginning of WWII.  There, as here, it&#8217;s the servicemen in the field who are fixing the problem.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#8217;t make it right.</p>
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		<title>By: Joust The Facts</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-5688</link>
		<dc:creator>Joust The Facts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-5688</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Some Great Blog Posts&lt;/strong&gt;

Have a look at these. The American Princess writes on the upcoming Supreme Court decision on the Ten Commandments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Some Great Blog Posts</strong></p>
<p>Have a look at these. The American Princess writes on the upcoming Supreme Court decision on the Ten Commandments.</p>
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		<title>By: The MaryHunter</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/06/26/support-the-troops-bash-the-pentagon/comment-page-1/#comment-5668</link>
		<dc:creator>The MaryHunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=583#comment-5668</guid>
		<description>It's one thing for the Pentagon to make tactical or even strategic errors in planning for possibles or eventuals in wartime. That's part of the truism that no plan for a war lasts intact after the action starts. 

It's something else, and nothing short of ludicrous, to simply not learn from your mistakes. 

How can we claim to have the best, most agile engine of war in the history of the world, and simply not be able to accommodate rapid R&#38;D for acute problems, AND swift change in the supply line, do to bureaucratic inefficiencies? 

This was frustrating to read, Rick, but so well presented. I'd like to see if some bloggers can defend the Pentagon on this issue. (Moonbats, go away.) The Pentagon certainly won't defend themselves in any well-articulated manner, besides their usual "we're doing what we can" line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s one thing for the Pentagon to make tactical or even strategic errors in planning for possibles or eventuals in wartime. That&#8217;s part of the truism that no plan for a war lasts intact after the action starts. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s something else, and nothing short of ludicrous, to simply not learn from your mistakes. </p>
<p>How can we claim to have the best, most agile engine of war in the history of the world, and simply not be able to accommodate rapid R&amp;D for acute problems, AND swift change in the supply line, do to bureaucratic inefficiencies? </p>
<p>This was frustrating to read, Rick, but so well presented. I&#8217;d like to see if some bloggers can defend the Pentagon on this issue. (Moonbats, go away.) The Pentagon certainly won&#8217;t defend themselves in any well-articulated manner, besides their usual &#8220;we&#8217;re doing what we can&#8221; line.</p>
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