Regardless of whether the Democrats take over the House and Senate in November, it seems clear that our foreign policy elites have decided that the War in Iraq is a lost cause and the only viable strategy should be to get our troops out as fast as possible.
There is no other way to view the recommendations that will be forthcoming from the Iraq Study Group headed up by Bush family friend and foreign policy blue blood James Baker:
A commission formed to assess the Iraq war and recommend a new course has ruled out the prospect of victory for America, according to draft policy options shared with The New York Sun by commission officials.Currently, the 10-member commission — headed by a secretary of state for President George H.W. Bush, James Baker — is considering two option papers, “Stability First” and “Redeploy and Contain,” both of which rule out any prospect of making Iraq a stable democracy in the near term.
More telling, however, is the ruling out of two options last month. One advocated minor fixes to the current war plan but kept intact the long-term vision of democracy in Iraq with regular elections. The second proposed that coalition forces focus their attacks only on Al Qaeda and not the wider insurgency.
Instead, the commission is headed toward presenting President Bush with two clear policy choices that contradict his rhetoric of establishing democracy in Iraq. The more palatable of the two choices for the White House, “Stability First,” argues that the military should focus on stabilizing Baghdad while the American Embassy should work toward political accommodation with insurgents. The goal of nurturing a democracy in Iraq is dropped.
As I wrote about here, this is hardly a “Study Group” at all. Their job? It isn’t what their legislative mandate says it is:
“The Iraq Study Group will conduct a forward-looking, independent assessment of the current and prospective situation on the ground in Iraq, its impact on the surrounding region, and consequences for U.S. interests.
Instead, the Baker Commission, as it is coming to be called, was set up for the sole and exclusive purpose of giving both Republican and Democratic politicians cover for our retreat from Iraq. The Washington Post sniffed this out almost immediately:
The group has attracted little attention beyond foreign policy elites since its formation this year. But it is widely viewed within that small world as perhaps the last hope for a midcourse correction in a venture they generally agree has been a disaster.The reason, by and large, is the involvement of Baker, 76, the legendary troubleshooter who remains close to the first President Bush and cordial with the second. Many policy experts think that if anyone can forge bipartisan consensus on a plan for extricating the United States from Iraq —and then successfully pitch that plan to a president who has so far seemed impervious to outside pressure—it is the man who put together the first Gulf War coalition, which evicted Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991.
Our worst fears regarding the Commission seems to have been confirmed by leaks to the New York Sun about the two plans under consideration. Both plans explicitly reject the idea of winning through to what the President has defined as “victory:” A stable, democratic Iraq capable of defending itself from the murderous terrorists who are seeking to bring down the current government with the help of outside powers.
In short, the “Baker Solution” is a recipe for defeat and retreat. No amount of spin will change the fact that once we leave Iraq, the entire world will see that our enemies in Iran and Syria as well as al-Qaeda were successful in inflicting enough pain on the American people to cause our precipitous withdrawal.
The first plan especially, is maddening. It grants what appears to be about 75% of what under any circumstances would be considered “victory” and then yanks the troops from Iraq before they can finish the job:
The president also said he was not averse to changing tactics. But he repeated that the strategic goal in Iraq is to build “a country which can defend itself, sustain itself, and govern itself.” He added, “The strategic goal is to help this young democracy succeed in a world in which extremists are trying to intimidate rational people in order to topple moderate governments and to extend the caliphate.”But the president’s strategic goal is at odds with the opinion of Mr. Baker’s expert working groups, which dismiss the notion of victory in Iraq. The “Stability First” paper says, “The United States should aim for stability particularly in Baghdad and political accommodation in Iraq rather than victory.”
Stabilizing Baghdad, and bringing the bulk of insurgent groups into the political process is by any definition, “staying the course.” Prime Minister al-Maliki has already successfully negotiated with more than a dozen insurgent groups, including tribal militias who are now battling al-Qaeda terrorists instead of American soldiers. And American casualties have skyrocketed the last three months because we have transferred the bulk of our combat forces to Baghdad in order to try and bring a modicum of peace to the bloody chaos in that tragic city.
Leaving the rest undone – training the Iraqi army and assisting the new government with some of its thornier problems having to do with militias and death squads – is almost incomprehensible. The problem, as the elites see it, is that Iraq has stressed the army, complicated our relations with our friends in the Middle East, roiled domestic consensus at home to fight the War on Terror, and been a general distraction from what they believe should be our goal – getting to the “root causes” of terrorism and solving problems like the Israeli-Palestinian question as well as the insularity and poverty of Muslim states.
But why bother with the rest if you’re not planning on finishing the job? It has been my contention for many months – spelled out most recently here - that if we are not going to attempt victory then it is immoral to ask our men and women to place themselves in harm’s way for some face saving solution. That’s the Kissinger Viet Nam formulation. I thought it stupid, wasteful and immoral at the time and still feel that way today. The only business government has in asking young men to die is in the cause of victory. Anything less is state sponsored murder. In a free society and even with an all volunteer army, national leaders should not use the lives of its young men to make geopolitical statements or “save face,” or prove how much suffering we can endure (as the Nixon-Kissinger logic went after they decided we couldn’t win).
Once it is determined that we cannot win (or in this case, do not have the national will to win), we should admit defeat and withdraw the troops immediately. Whatever failed state Iraq becomes we will just have to deal with it in the context of the rest of the Global War on Terror. Yes it will complicate our efforts enormously. But we should have thought about that before wasting the selfless courage and spirit of our military in a war that we were not willing to see through to a victorious conclusion.
Will Bush go along with anything the Baker Commission recommends? The ISG will release its report in December, after the November elections. I have no doubt that the President will find himself under enormous pressure to accept withdrawal from Iraq based on the Commission’s criteria. Although Bush has proven himself to be one of the most stubborn Presidents in recent history I doubt that he, Rumsfeld, and Cheney can hold out against the entire foreign policy and defense establishments as well as majorities in both Houses of Congress. He will have to reluctantly agree to some kind of withdrawal plan short of victory.
And that’s when it will become very tricky indeed. The Administration will be forced to sit down with both Syria and Iran in order to get those two states to stop funding and supplying the insurgents – a task made extremely difficult by the fact that neither country wants to do us any favors. So withdrawal will go foreword leaving a weak Iraqi government that will, as some analysts believe, morph into a military dictatorship or worse that will have a mandate to bring order out of the spiralling violence. And the dream of Iraqi democracy will die an ignoble death.
In fact, the Baker Commission sees this as probably the best near term solution:
If we are able to promote representative, representative government, not necessarily democracy, in a number of nations in the Middle East and bring more freedom to the people of that part of the world, it will have been a success,” he said.That distinction is crucial, according to one member of the expert working groups. “Baker wants to believe that Sunni dictators in Sunni majority states are representative,” the group member, who requested anonymity, said.
It has become clear in the last few months that our democracy experiment in Iraq was in more trouble from defeatists and political opponents at home than it was from either al-Qaeda or the insurgency. Even the British, seeing the ascendancy of the anti-war Democrats in November and suffering from their own disillusionment, appear ready to leave. All that appears to be left to do is determine how fast we get our troops out of danger and what kind of spin will be given to this massive failure of American will which will attempt to salve our consciences and soothe our feelings about losing a war that should have been won.
3:18 pm
I have to wonder if this latest pre-election “leak” includes all of the options being evaluated or just the ones that admit defeat.
3:32 pm
Damn that leftest defeatist Baker!
It’s not the non existant planning for the occupation that’s the problem.
It’s not the ignorance of the region which of course has no history of sectarian strife.
It’s not the new era of warfare, lighter, faster, more agile, introduced by our Sec. of Defense.
No, it’s people like Gerald Burke, National Security Advisor to the Iraqi Ministry of Interior
And of course blue ribbed liberals like James Baker.
3:36 pm
[...] Update: Moran thinks the Baker Commission is a set-up to pressure Bush into pulling out and that failure in Iraq is wholly attributable to a failure of American will. Really? The will was there in 2003. What happened? [...]
3:42 pm
You got that right Mark #1. Why in the world should we invest time in evaluating what is leaked out, when we know from past experience (every. single. time.) that it won’t match the real story.
4:42 pm
The Baker Collusion has failed totally. They did not follow their simple mandate, they cannot see a way to win a war that has managed to create historical precedents, and they should be ashamed at their total failure.
America can win. All we need to do is to keep those in power who are willing to fight for freedom by getting off of our assetts, and vote correctly.
BTW, the POTUS has had his polling numbers rising throughout this week according to Rasmussen. I’ll bet you didn’t know that. :o)
4:46 pm
I’ll quibble with one point you made: “The only business government has in asking young men to die is in the cause of victory”.
Actually, the only reason is to protect the country and its citizens. ‘Victory’ is a means of protecting America and not an end in of itself.
In fact, there could be times where it was more costly to America to ‘win’ than to merely ‘not lose’. I believe that ‘winning’ in Iraq is one of those situations, where the costs to America – in lives and money of winning aren’t worth the marginal (if that) improvement in making America safer… which is why, in the case of Iraq, if we have to be there at all, I’m happy with not losing.
6:51 pm
Rick: this is a fascinating article, and I’ll post on it later.
But I know it’s a different topic, but I want to prove I’m a man of my word:
“United States now has preliminary evidence of radioactivity from North Korea’s nuclear test ground, indicating it did indeed carry out a test, a U.S. official tells CNN… MORE… ”
I said I would come back on this issue, and thus I have too:
My original take, on another post, and on several other Blogs, was that the NK’s faked this “nuke” test; no radiation for a week, seemed to confirm it!
Anyway, regardless, it now appears that I was INCORRECT, and my “call” was wrong.
The above quote is from Drudge, with more to come!
My apologies….
10:58 pm
Bin Laden Asked to Replace Al Qaeda Leader in Iraq
13 October 2006 | 15:58 | FOCUS News Agency
Baghdad. A man introducing himself as the ‘Jihad leader in Iraq’ called on Osama bin Laden to oust Abu Ayyub al-Masri who has been appointed the leader of the Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, Dubai TV station Al Arabia reports.
Al Arabia showed footage of Abu Osama al-Mijahid in which he complains to bin Laden about unfair acts of violence on the part of the Iraqi unit of terrorist network Al Qaeda, whose leader is Abu Ayyub al-Masri.
“We insist that we are led by an Iraqi, just like in Afghanistan the leader is an Afghan,†Al-Mujahid underscored, cited by the TV station.
So, in the meantime, with more and more terrorists being captured and killed by US and Iraqi and Coalition forces every week; with Al Qaeda in internal disarray; with 16 of 21 Sunni Tribes sigining on to fight THE insurgents and Al Qaeda; Jim Baker, and cabal of quislings, seem hellbent on adopting the LEFISTS policy of cut-and-run-surrender-first, and to try and pull us out of Iraq!
In Vietnam, thanks to the weak-kneed and Leftist, we won ALL the Battles,and lost the War!
And now, because of the Leftocrats, and lack of Will of the supposed Republican “elites” like James Baker, we’re going ot repeat history, having won ALL the battles, we’ll lose the War nonetheless!
Here’s an interesting piece of history: during the ENTIRE Vietnam War, the NVA/VC NEVER won a SINGLE Battle, involving a military unit the size of a Platoon (36 men) or higher! Company, Battalion, Regiment, Brigade, Division, etc.! That’s incredible! And yet, we still “lost” the WAR somehow???
In Iraq, it’s even WORSE than that!
In Iraq, the terrorists/insurgents, have had NO military victory, in ANY battle, at the SQUAD level (13 men!) or higher, all the way up to Combined/Joint Task Force!
Think about that, and tell me, why did we “lose” Vietnam, and why WILL we “lose” Iraq…............
ONE Word…................LEFTISTS…...who HATE America….
PURE AND SIMPLE!
11:41 pm
During Vietnam our enemies learned that even if they could not win any battles in the field that a psy ops campaign directed against the Aemrican people can be successful, however, it must be stressed that we never would have gotten to this point had we planned better for the phase of the war that came after the former Iraqi government was removed from power.
12:05 am
You misunderstand the fundamental nature of insurgency warfare. Winning battles ultimately means little, because the opposing military/insurgent force is not the primary center of gravity in an insurgent conflict. That is the primary reason we lost in Vietnam and, with a few notable exceptions, we’re using the same failed strategy today. Blaming it on war protesters or so-called leftists is simply incorrect and only further divides the country which contributes to the “lack of will” among the American people you describe. Name-calling and blaming, which is so prevalent on both the right and left now, serves no purpose other than to hasten defeat.
It’s a question of will, but not the will to unleash more firepower, as so many incorrectly suggest. If the Iraqi people (like the South Vietnamese before them) don’t have the will to win, then it doesn’t matter what we do. We cannot defeat the insurgency in Iraq. Only Iraqi’s can do that with our help, but only if they have the will to do so – something we cannot give them.
12:08 am
Actually, the PSYOP campaign was primarly targeting the South Vietnamese population and it was mostly successful.
12:18 am
Andy
By the Psy ops campaign I was referring to the defeatist attitude expressed by the media of that time. The Vietnam war is actually before my time, so my use of the term is based on what people who lived through the era described to me.
I agree with you that in the final analysis whether or not the insurgency can be defeated will be up to the Iraqis. Also, whether or not Iraq can achieve a stable democracy will largely be up to the Iraqis and not us. As you point out, we can help them along. One way to do this would be to commit more troops to provide security, however, we probably don’t have the troops and even if we did we lack the national will to commit them. As such, at this time, more troops for Iraq is out of the question. In any event, any help we provide them with will have to be without the use of American troops, as we will be withdrawing soon.
2:32 am
Andy: I most certainly DO understand the nature of Insurgency warfare; it’s something I studied, and trained for, for a decade and a half!
From the Boer War, to the British in Malaysia and Oman, to Vietnam, to the Mau Mau’s, to the Shining Path in Peru, to Northern Ireland; you name it; I studied it, read the propaganda, and we trained for it!
And winning battles is MOST certainly important! In ANY conflict! Even insurgencies!
People often cite the British success in Malaysia, as a successful counter-insurgency, but there are other examples.
The Shining Path in Peru, was defeated by combination of the Peruvian Government/Military RELENTLESSLY pursuing the leadership of the Shining Path and capturing or killing them all!
The British in the Dhofor insurgency of Oman, is another successful counter-insurgency completely overlooked, all the time.
The bottomline though, as General T. Sherman proved on his “March to the Sea”, the Larger Center of Gravity in ANY conflict, including Insurgencies, is the absolute destruction of the enemy personnel! It is not the occupation of land, it is the destruction of enemy personnel!
Where the real success comes in how ever, is recognizing that EACH insurgnecy is unique, and can have MULTIPLE Center’s of Gravity, and even changing ones; the success of the CI relies upon the Prosecuter of the CI, to recognize those COG’s; take advantage of those COG’s, get inside the OODA-loops of the CI instigators, and destroy them!
We did not fail in Vietnam, because as you say, we decided the COG was enemy personnel; we failed in Vietnam because THEY realized that OUR COG was our Leftists and Defeatists at home, and they took advantage of our COG more than we took advantage of THEIR! That is a FACT!
General Giap himself, has stated it many times, and written about it as well; basically, we had not chance on the battlefields of Vietnam against America, we won the War on the Streets of Americx!
Who better to explain why you “lost” a war, than the General of the side that “wom”!
We know what the COG’s are of the Iraqi insurgency: relentless pursue the leadership(s) in all it’s myriad forms: local Sunnis, Al Qaeda, etc.; and KILL Them!
Additionally, it’s a fact, with the killing of Zarqawi, we finally go inside Al Qaeda’s OODA-loop for the first time; the amount of “intel” picked up, has lead all summer and fall, to an ever tightening circle being drawn around the Al Qaeda, and not the local’s leadership, and it just continues to feed upon itself!
They ARE in disarray, even if you, and the MSM, refuse to recognize it!
Other COG’s in the Iraqi insurgency, are similar to the COG’s in the Shining Path; at least vis a vis Al Qaeda; it is a personality cult; with the Shining Path, it was a Personality cult built around Guzman, when he was captured, it almost brought the insurgency to a complete standstill!
And a major COG, in Iraq, is the support of the local populace for the insurgency; this is always a very close second COG to the first, which is killing the enemy personnel!
When the Shining Path started to lose the support of the local populace, along with the relentless pursuit by the Peruvian military, it was doomed.
When the Dhofarian rebels lost the support of the local tribesmen, along with the relentless Sultanate and British pressure, they were doomed.
The British employed the successful strategy, in both Malaysia and Oman, of isolating the insurgents from the local populace, and combined with the atrocities committed by both insurgencies, enjoined that success! Despite what the Leftist-inspired history books say about Vietnam, I served with, and researched, and spoke with MANY veterans of Vietnam, who said the Strategic Hamlet program, WAS in fact, working, and would’ve been successful, especially as being employed by the Marine Corps; but that General Westmoreland came in, and decided that HE would win the war with Airpower, and Mass land battles, and that change in focus, is what caused the war to drag out, and give the NVA/VC time to win the propaganda war!
This type of strategy cannot be successful in Iraq, due to the more urban nature of the insurgency, the terrain (desert instead of jungles); and the large population (instead of sparse and/or jungle like Peru and Oman).
So, the main COG after killing the personnel/leaders, is to TRY and win the hearts and minds Iraqis, and to AGRESSIVELY take advantage of the atrocities that Al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgents continue to commit against the local populace!
If you’ve been paying ANY attention at ALL, to the news that comes out of Iraq, from Al Qaeda and the Insurgents themselves, they are only TOO painfully aware, that this is their Achilles Heel, adn that they are in fact, LOSING this aspect of the War itself!
So, as I said in my original post; the $64,000 question is; will WE be successful, in exploiting the COG’s of the enemy, FIRST, or will the Leftists in this country, sensing another Victory against the US Military, allow Al Qaeda and the Sunni Insurgents, to exploit OUR major COG first, which is our cut-and-run-defeatist-Leftocrats, thereby handing them another victory “...on the streets of America…” that wasn’t earned on the Battlefield???
And Andy, be very careful, in telling a former Marine Infantry & Intel Officer (ME); that I know nothing about the fundalmental nature of Insurgency Warfare, it may come back to haunt you!
6:18 am
In short, the “Baker Solution†is a recipe for defeat and retreat. No amount of spin will change the fact that once we leave Iraq, the entire world will see that our enemies in Iran and Syria as well as al-Qaeda were successful in inflicting enough pain on the American people to cause our precipitous withdrawal.
You’re the only person saying this. It is fine and dandy to mischaracterize the Dem position on Iraq like this, but shortsighted to do so with the Baker commission.
This isn’t a matter of the insurgency having pushed us past our “cut and run” breaking point. It is a realization that the war was a mistake, is a mistake, was mishandled, is being mishandled and that it’s time to lick our wounds and fold up shop.
If mature, wise and ideologically correct (i.e. Republican) analysts with authority recognize that the war is lost and advocate acting accordingly, why can’t you accept what they are saying?
We’ve long since passed the point where wishful thinking a la GW will carry us forward into victory in Iraq. Sometimes good, powerful nations on the side of righteousness lose wars. Everyone knows that we’ve lost Iraq. The world isn’t going to end just because we come around to acknowledging this ourselves and acting accordingly.
10:17 am
Welcome to Presidential Jeopardy!
I’m Alex Trebek – and we’re pleased to welcome ex-Presidents Carter, George H. W. Bush, and Clinton to Jeopardy: ex-President’s Edition!
10:34 am
Liberal Avenger: We have not lost yet, however, changes in strategy are needed. I think the optimal solution would be a greater commtiment of troops to Iraq but for a variety of reasons this is not going to happen. As such, any changes in strategy cannot include more troops.
While you are correct that if we fail in Iraq the world will not end, however, it will make winning the GWOT more difficult. If we succeed in establishing an allied and stable Iraqi government, the war will not have been a mistake, however, if we fail it will have been.
Dale: Interesting post. You discuss giving the NVA/VC time to win the propaganda war. Had we have planned for the phase of the war that came after removing the former Iraqi government better I think it is unlikely that we would find ourselves in the position we currently find ourselves in.
In any event, the US will be exiting Iraq in masse very soon. By July 2007 there will be 10,000 troops or fewer in Iraq. These will be primarily special forces who will be backed up by air support and they will be based in Kurdish areas. They will be prepared to intervene in the Iraqi Civil war as necessary to prevent the formation of terrorist bases. Any US battling of “insurgents” by the US will be done by proxies. I’m sure part of the work of the Iraq Study Group will be to try and identify proxy groups within Iraq that we can work with. I hope the new strategy works because it is the one we will get. This is my prediction. If it turns out to be wrong, I will admit it.
2:05 pm
[...] Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.* In another Iraq post at Hot Air, Allah writes, in referring to a post at Right Wing Nut House: Moran thinks the Baker Commission is a set-up to pressure Bush into pulling out and that failure in Iraq is wholly attributable to a failure of American will. Really? The will was there in 2003. What happened? [...]
5:32 pm
It has become clear in the last few months that our democracy experiment in Iraq was in more trouble from defeatists and political opponents at home than it was from either al-Qaeda or the insurgency.
That doesn’t make any sense, do you even think about what you write?
The “experiment” failed because of the mad scientists that throught they could slap together a country after blowing the hell out of it. Your Dear Leader and his minions screwed up and you’ll blame everyone but them to protect your own fevered ego.
6:35 pm
If by ‘’victory’’ you mean a stable ‘’westernized’’ Iraq, then yes, ‘’victory’’ is impossible.
No matter how long we stay there.
I can accept remaining in Iraq until after the US elections. Then every last soldier in Iraq should be home for Thanksgiving dinner.
Iraq is ‘’Lord of the flies’’ made reality. We need to get our troops out of that train wreck shortly after the US elections.
10:14 pm
You gotta love it. We can’t win so just pick up our marbles and bring our troops home. Never mind that General Giap, North Vietnamese Army, said very plainly that the Americans could not be defeated on the battle field but we could be defeated in the streets of our own cities. And so we were.
Never mind that once we pull out of Iraq, the terrorist faction will take over. But maybe they will stop trying to kill us there and just make a harder effort to kill us here. Maybe? And maybe the terrorists won’t take possession of the Iraqi oil fields to finance their terrorism against the United States and Israel. Maybe? And maybe they will decide to quit killing their own who practice a different sect of Islam and all the civilian deaths by suicide bombings and IEDs will end. Maybe? And maybe the Kurds will be killed in mass numbers again? Maybe? But so what? We have lost almost three thousand troops and for some any number lost in Iraq would be too great.
Never mind that the Islamofascists have been planning the killing of infidels for 1500 years. Never mind that they really don’t care if we are Republican, Democrat or Independent. Never mind that they want all of us converted to Islam or dead. Never mind that Osama Bin Laden himself said that winning the war in Iraq was important to them. Never mind that the killing of infidels is part of their religion and that jihad is the requirement of every Muslim. Never mind that we saw Muslims marching in our own streets during the Israel/Lebanon conflict carrying signs with the Star and Crescent flying over the White House.
How quickly we forget the desires of those who want to conquer us. How quickly we forgot how we felt that Hitler would never be a threat to us. How quickly we forgot how many Cambodians died because we did not have the will to win the war in Vietnam.
The terrorists possess one thing we do not. Patience. They patiently wait to fly planes into our buildings killing 3,000 Americans. They patiently wait for us to lose our will and pull out, giving them a victory in Iraq. But of course, if we just leave them alone, maybe they will leave us alone. Maybe? Never mind that they are telling us, loud and clear, what their intentions are. Conversion or death. They could not be more explicit.
But then maybe some of us realize that while the Islamofascists have had 1500 years to figure out how to kill us infidels, we have only had 5 years to figure out how to fight them. And maybe some of us realize that if we don’t fight them, where ever we find them, and win, the way of life we have always known will eventually be controlled by the Religion of Perpetual Outrage, Islam. Take a look around you. A Muslim man in Australia kills his wife because his daughter announced she was going to become a Christian and he blamed his wife, according to Islamic law. Taxi drivers are refusing to take fares that (might) have alcohol in their suitcases. What is next? Refusal to take a fare because a woman is not wearing a burka? Muslims in England raising hell because the Olympics in 2012 coinside with Ramadan.
So the next time you have to go through a search in an airport, remember why you have to go through that search. Remember, that it is because 3,000 Americans were killed because they don’t care where they kill us. They just want us dead. And remember, if we give up Iraq to the terrorists, and that is what will happen if we leave, their next target will be the United States, again.
So quit your gritching. Make up your mind that we have to win this war. Quit undermining our troops who are putting their lives on the line every day to keep you from having to worry about fighting Islamfascism in our own streets. We are fighting an enemy that values death more than life, Islam more than any nation and follow a prophet that gave them clear directions to conquer the world for Islam.
So for those of you who feel that this war in Iraq has ceased to be important, just go ahead and convert to Islam now. Not that it will do you much good in the end. Because one sect or another will decide you, as an American, cannot understand the real Islam and will want to see you dead anyway.
Thank God the colonists did not feel the way you do. We would be sending our taxes to London.
3:45 am
‘’Never mind that the killing of infidels is part of their religion and that jihad is the requirement of every Muslim. Never mind that we saw Muslims marching in our own streets during the Israel/Lebanon conflict carrying signs with the Star and Crescent flying over the White House.’‘. From a comment above.
I’m quite aware of that. ‘’Thank God the colonists did not feel the way you do. We would be sending our taxes to London.’‘. From the same comment.
How do you propose to deal with the muslim colonists in OUR country? You acknowlege that is what they are. We CANNOT ‘’bring freedom’’ to muslims. That is not what they want. What they want is the ‘’freedom’’ to rule over non-muslims with an iron fist. Look throughout europe, that’s exactly what they are doing.
Remember the so-called ‘’cartoon riots’‘? Remember that almost no newspaper or TV network would display those cartoons? Or in the case of CNN showed them ‘blurred out’? True, many blogs (including my own) displayed them but most newspapers WERE AFRAID TO.
Why? Because they were afraid of violence by muslim colonists IN OUR COUNTRY.
Would we have allowed the construction of Japanese Shinto shrines in the US in 1942? IF NOT, WHY NOT?
Muslims REJECT freedom, they make that quite plain every day. So how can we ‘’bring freedom’’ to a muslim country? Why are we wasting American (and British) lives and resources trying to ‘’westernize’’ them while allowing muslims to colonize US?
That was ALSO the point of British Army Chief of Staff General Sir Richard Dannatt. After July 7th 2005 no sane Brit can legitimately conclude that British involvement in Iraq has done anything to make them safer. And our involvement in Iraq has done nothing to make US safer. Not with muslim colonists in our midst.
Our military has done it’s job (reducing Iraq to ruins). Staying there in a futile attempt to ‘’nation-build’’ a new Iraq is not their job.
We don’t have the manpower or resources to ‘’commit’’ to stabilize Iraq. Nor should we even try. Israel finally got it right, isolate the muslims and stand back and let them tear each other apart. See what is happening in Gaza now.
Go to Jihad Watch and read the writings of Hugh Fitzgerald. Use the propensity of violence that muslims clearly demonstrate as Jujitsu against them.
You are aware of what Jujitsu is are you not?
Use our enemies force as a tool to help defeat it.
It’s why I advocate leaving Iraq. Just get our people out of the way and allow ‘’the iraqi people’’ to rip each other to shreds. Which is EXACTLY what they are doing anyway with or without our help.
The purpose of The Military is NOT to be ‘’an international meals-on-wheels’’ the purpose of The Military is ‘’to kill people and break things’‘.
Shock and Awe AND LEAVE. NOT Shock and Awe AND STAY.
10:34 am
Yourimagehere, I agree with you when it comes to allowing the enemy to run free among us. Why is CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) allowed to still operate? One of their leaders, a CAIR representative from Dallas, was just recently sentenced to a 7 year prison term for aiding and abetting. Yet, we have TWO Democrats running for congress that is accepting campaign money from these slugs.
I am not stupid and am fully aware of Jihad Watch as well as the writings of Daniel Pipes. I just finished Islam Unveiled by Robert Spencer. I realize that the Islamic faith is still in the 6th century. So your solution is to leave them to themselves? How would you propose to do that when a following of a violent religion stuck in 6th century war mode has 21st century technology?
Perhaps we cannot bring “freedom” to an Islamic nation but we can damn sure bring capitalism. And capitalism is a great motivator as is greed. People who have never had anything besides living in fear will have a change of heart about a lot of things, including their oppressive religion, when they see their bank accounts increase. Japan was once a very religious nation. Would you say that now? Would you say that religion plays the same important part in their society now as it did in 1941?
You say it is not our place to “nation build”. I ask you, what did we do in Germany and Japan? Did we not nation build? Why do we still have troops in Germany? The threat of the Cold War has ended, yet we still maintain troops in Germany. Japan is now an ally, but we still have troops in Japan. North Korea has a force in the hundreds of thousands, but we still maintain a force of 29,000 there.
And why are we afraid of Muslim retaliation over some stupid cartoon? Because we know that the Muslims, who subscribe to the Religion of Perpetual Rage, will retaliate. Are you suggesting that we just submit to their demands and leave them alone and that will make everything all honky dorie? I don’t think so. And if you think Israel got it right, then you must think that having Katusa rockets lobbed at you on a daily basis is “getting it right”.
We are in this fight alone. Europe is rapidly becoming an Islamic continent. More riots (not well covered by the MSM) in Paris, Catholic priests having their heads lopped off, etc. Maybe you are willing to sit back and see if, when we pull out of Iraq, they will just limit their killing spree to each other, but I am not.
And when the terrorists have control over Iraq’s vast oil wealth and can buy newer, fancier, deadlier weapons from North Korea or Iran, will you feel safer then knowing our troops are home to catch a rocket like a fast ball pitched over home plate? Or will you be living with a higher fear level just waiting for the next subway bombing, a bridge to be taken down, or a nuclear weapon released in Houston?
When we realize that these terrorists value death more than life, when we realize that Islam is not a religion of peace but a religion of war, when we realize that turning against their own can bring death to a Muslim, when we realize that leaving Iraq will not stop their desire to kill us, then maybe we can start fighting this war to win.
Muslims believe that there is glory in dying in jihad but no glory dying in their own beds. They use our laws against us in our own nation. It is time we start reporting that they (the terrorists) found no glory in Allah because they were killed in their own beds.
No, the war in Iraq is not making us safer. It is rallying the Islamic jihadists to their cause. So what? Do you think that all those jihadists were just sitting around with no ideas of ever fighting us before we went into Iraq? Or were they just waiting for the battle cry? Do you really believe that all those goat herders, cart merchants and wheat farmers were just peaceful people who never thought of fighting for Islam until we came along?
So far our own government (and I blame the left mostly) have made us like the Indians who had bows and arrows fighting against the Calvary who had rifles. The Indians were smarter than us, though. They realized that holding on to their “moral” high ground of fighting with the dignity of traditional Indian ways were only making them dead. So they got rifles and fought back. Only by then, it was too late. They did not win, but they at least gave it a hellofa shot and went down fighting.
Personally, I would rather go down fighting like my Indian ancestors than to throw my hands up like the French and give my nation away without so much of a struggle.
You see, I learned from the Indian wars and Vietnam. You cannot win against an enemy if you are not willing to engage them in battle on THEIR terms and throw away the book. The British held on to their Napoleonic ways of warfare, the colonists adopted the Indian method of warfare, changing in their views. Who won?
12:40 pm
Rather amusing to see the lack of history on display. The British did not use Napoleonic tactics during the Armerican Revolution: Buonaparte’s time came some 30 years later. The British developed the “indian” tactics, using them with Roger’s Rangers in the French and Indian (aka 7 years) War. The Rangers are the lineal ancestor of at least one UK regiment.
The Indians: Most of them won, unless you would count winning as keeping the entire North American Continent in stone age misery. The ones who wanted to do that lost, thank goodness. The Seneca sold their land, for a great price, thanks to Red Jacket and Morris. The Indians in California scraped by until the Casino was invented.
12:46 pm
First I agree with you on CAIR (actual name HAMAS).
Our troops are facing the brig if they actully fight against muslims in Iraq. Which is precisely why the is no longer any good reason for them to stay there.
Nor is there any connection between capitalism and freedom. Look at China.
We have a Military that is designed for short-term highly effective strikes. (‘’Shock and Awe’‘). That is not effective for long-term use.
The comparison between ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ and post-WWII Germany and Japan is also mistaken.
We decimated Japan then ruled it with an iron fist.
We did not decimate Iraq nor ruled it with an iron fist. We were too busy ‘’winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people’‘.
You seem to state our leaving Iraq as surrender.
It isn’t. Nor is that my point. Our fantasy of ‘’westernizing’’ Iraq is the problem. The proper way to deal with these threats is the use of Shock and Awe AND LEAVE whenever nessessary. What kind of government Iraq has is not our concern. We can’t make muslims free not there nor here. Get our fellow Americans out of the way and allow ‘’the iraqi people’’ to rip each other to shreds.
Let them waste their manpower and resources tearing each other apart. Instead of US wasting OUR manpower and resources in a futile effort to create ‘’freedom’’ there. Muslims are unsuited for freedom ANYWHERE. Isolate them. Again, note Gaza the muslims there are phyically prevented from entry to Israel. And are turning their rage against one another.
It’s a win-win for Israel, the muslims rip each other to shreds there and the IDF doesn’t have to expend manpower and resources doing it themselves.
Iraq is a bloodbath, get our fellow Americans out the way and allow it to continue. That’s Hugh Fitzgerald’s point. Robert Spencer fully agrees with it and has stated so. It’s also my point.
12:58 pm
Jim Baker is a despicable elitist. The fact that the President (in apparent crisis of confidence) evidently ran to his father for advice—and was pointed to Jim Baker as a source of help—is hardly encouraging.
It is not the West that needs to grow balls—it is the President and his absolutely clueless Secretary of State.
The Bush/Rice team’s performance thus far on the NK nuke/missile crisis is anything but encouraging. As Bill O’Reilly says—there is NO LEADERSHIP being shown in Washington.
We need to let the President know that we expect him not to weasel out of this war the HE initiated and that WE have supported.
1:44 pm
To date the US has not gotten it right regarding the Israeli/Arab war. Pushing for the “road map to peace” was a terrible mistake. This only rewards terrorism. If we are going to fight against Islamic terrorists, you will need to fight them every where. It makes no snese for the US and its allies to fight them in Afghanistan and Iraq but reward it in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel should be encouraged not engage in any more unilateral withdrawls. They should be encouraged to reoccupy the areas they abandoned and they should be encouraged to expand their territory from there for as long as terrorism continues against them. An expanded Israel will serve as a stronger buffer between the Western world and the Islamic terrorists who want to kill them.
Unfortunately the geo-political realities mean that such a policy cannot be pursued at this time, therefore, they have settled for a policy that the current geo-political realities will allow. They have opted to settle for a strategy that has a chance to work that they can implement. Hopefully the current strategy of trying isolate the “Palestinians” will work. It is not the optimal one but it is the best one that can be implemented at this time.
With regards to Iraq I believe we could achieve a stable Western style democracy, if we were willing to commit the necessary resources to secure the country. Then we could work to isolate the Islamic extremists parties that we mistakenly allowed to enter the political process. For better or worse, we will never know if we could have achieved a Western style Democratic Iraq. The proper amount of resources were never commited to the project fromt he start and they are not going to be now. As the top Birtish soldier recently said, our goals will have to be scaled back. As we are unwilling and perhaps unable to commit the necessary resources to Iraq to give us the optimal chance of achieving a stable Western style democratic Iraq, we will be withdrawing soon.
The strategy we will employ will be simillar to the one suggested by “Your Image Here”, however, I predict some modifications to this. It is probably unrealistic to expect a full withdrawl. We will want to be flexible enough to respond, if terrorists should attempt to set up bases in the Iraqi areas we abandon. The mission will change to one that primarily uses special ops who will be based in Kurdish areas or possibly Kuwait. These forces will likely be backed up by air support. Also, an ally in Iraq, even if it is a non democratic one would be most helpful. To this end, we may try to identify a proxy that we can support against the militias but American troops will not be involved in the day to day battle against the “insurgency.” I don’t think they will be home by thanksgiving, however, I expect most of them to be home by Ju;y 2007. By July 2007 I look for only 10,000 or fewer American troops to be in the Iraqi region.
The strategy suggested by “Your Image Here” or the variation that I think will be implemented has a very good chance to work, IF it is properly implemented. The implementation of any strategy cannot be over stressed. If the correct policies are poorly implemented, this is every bit as bad as having bad policies that are executed flawlessly. I hope the policy changes that we will se will work because they are the ones we will get.
I think the optimal strategy for Iraq and the broader GWOT would be to combine both offense and defense. We should go on the offense against terrorists where ever they are, in Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Iraq, and “Palestine” and we should work to reform the middle east. A moratorium should be placed on immigration from Arab countries and the mosques should be closely monitored. Our borders should be secured and we should improve the enforcement of our immigration policies. It is my understanding that some of the 911 hijackers were here on expired visas. Had we simply aggressively enforced our immigration policies the 911 attacks probably could have been prevented. The optimal strategy cannot be implemented right now. The challenge of policy makers is to formulate policies that can work and that the domestic political situation, as well as the political situtions of our allies, will allow to be implemented. In other words, the optimal solution cannot always be implemented. In these cases, it would be better to do something else rather than try to implement a solution that cannot be implemented.
Finally, I wish the Iraqis all the best. I hope and pray they can achieve a Western style representative democracy.. For better or worse, unless the Aemrican and allied domestic political situations change, the Iraqis will have to do this without our help. We will be withdrawing in masse very soon. This will happen no matter who wins the elections this November.
2:01 pm
Baker’s plan is the same failed plan he offered during Gulf War I, stability though superior appeasement power. We know how well his plan has worked out.
2:24 pm
“Our troops are facing the brig if they actually fight against muslims in Iraq.” This seems to be spot on. The Aemrican leadership lacks the will to allow the military to fight decisively.
2:44 pm
I agree with so many posters—Iraq is part of an eternal war and we want it to be over in a couple months! I think POTUS and Rumsfeld were so excited by the seeming ease of Afghanistan that they put Iraq on the front burner, hoping for the same clean, air-dominated victory. Hah. Saddam and the other gangsters went to school on Afghanistan. They headed for the hills and waited for the time to begin the classic Lebanon Civil War-ish terror campaign to scare way the infidels. Seems to be working.
3:50 pm
Thank you B.Poster. I also agree on your modifiction:
‘’The strategy we will employ will be simillar to the one suggested by “Your Image Hereâ€, however, I predict some modifications to this. It is probably unrealistic to expect a full withdrawl. We will want to be flexible enough to respond, if terrorists should attempt to set up bases in the Iraqi areas we abandon. The mission will change to one that primarily uses special ops who will be based in Kurdish areas or possibly Kuwait. These forces will likely be backed up by air support.’‘.
You are correct in your position that full withdrawl is unrealistic. We will have to maintain much smaller forces in Kurdistan both for rapid-response needs (Shock and Awe AND LEAVE) and to serve as a buffer between (what will become likely) fully-independent Kurdistan and Turkey. The rest of Iraq will sort itself out on it’s own terms. Without our interferance or our fellow Americans in it’s crossfire. What will happen in ‘’shiastan’’ and ‘’sunnistan’’ after the removal of US forces from those areas? What is already occuring there, a bloodbath. It’s why I refer to it as ‘’Lord of the flies’’ made reality. I’m quite sure the artifical ‘’government of Iraq’’ we celebrated with ‘’purple finger fever’’ will quickly ceast to exist.
As in ‘’Lord of the flies’’ the most brutal ‘’order bringer’’ will rise to the top. That is how anarchy ALWAYS resolves itself. After it does the ‘’rebuilding of Iraq’’ will procced. With ‘’the iraqi people’’ doing it and not US.
From Hugh Fitzgerald:
‘’After a week or a month of celebration when the regime fell, the Iraqis reverted soon to type. They complained, they whined, they watched and watched as the Americans tried to get them to organize, tried to get them to cooperate with each other and not merely hold out their hands, pushing each other aside in order to claim more, more, more of the endless American funds and goodies, and never satisfied with what those American soldiers, risking their lives even to go from Point A to Point B, did for them. “But where’s the air-conditioning?†said a teacher to a stunned American soldier who had just proudly showed her the building he and his men had totally rebuilt and refurbished, and thought she would be pleased.’‘.
Think about that statement above. That’s what ‘’winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people’’ has led to.
For over three years and thousands of fellow Americans dead ‘’winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people’’ has been an abject failure.
Train a unified Iraqi security apparatus to replace our forces? Also mostly unsuccessful. Why should ‘’the iraqi people’’ do ‘’the heavy lifting’’ to stablize their homeland when our forces are there to do it for them? Without our fellow Americans there ‘’the iraqi people’’ will have no choice but to figure out what way of life they want for themselves. WITHOUT ‘’our help’‘.
5:54 pm
Some how this country has forgoten how to finish what we start
from Korea through Iraq and Afgahnistan…The problem this time
is if we pull out now we are in big trouble,the s**t will hit the
fan,lets face it these folks are not the Germans,Japs or VC they
have no fear of death,they will not quit till they are smashed into
dust…I have a little cut and paste that is point on to bad dubya
has Jim Baker for advice not Mr Scheuer…
More than five years after 9/11, the Clinton and Bush administrations continue to point fingers at one another for being unprepared for the attack. The heat has been turned up by former CIA agent Michael Scheuer, who has accused President Clinton and his aides of lying about their efforts to hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden. “The documents will show,” Scheuer told The Factor, “that President Clinton, Sandy Berger, and Richard Clarke had numerous opportunities to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden. To deny that they had the opportunities to do it is a lie.” Scheuer also gave his opinion of how to handle the war in Iraq. “The ultimate solution is simply that we don’t have enough troops there to win the war, and we have not been brutal enough. We have not conducted the war aggressively enough and have not annihilated the enemy.” The Factor added that this enemy is unlike any we’ve faced. “Al Qaeda is motivated by hatred, they just want to kill people. They think Allah is commanding them to do it and they’re going to do it. They’re homicidal maniacs.” Note the fact that we have not been brutal
enough…Git-R-Done now…
6:39 pm
Nobody can disagree that this commission and its supporters in Capitol Hill desire what you say, Rick. However, I think you’re wrong that this is the juggernaut Bush must yield to.
Three reasons to think otherwise:
1. Here’s a list of the membership of this committee.
http://www.usip.org/isg/members.html
There’s no generals or admirals, the only person with any real “military” experience is William J. Perry, who was Clinton’s Secy of Defense, which is not exactly the top-tier of experience.
The notion that Vernon Jordan, Sandra Day O’Connor, Leon Panetta, Robert Gates, Edwin Meese, Lee Hamilton, and James Baker III have superior military insight than the Joint Chiefs of Staff is laughable on its face. We might as well fold if we lose the Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce.
2. The issue of Iraqi democracy v. “stability” was put to the voters in 2004 and democracy won out. The idea the Baker Commission has the popular momentum to swing us behind fighting for dictatorship is looney.
3. Democracy has in fact been established in Iraq; there has been a constitution drafted, an election has taken place under that Constitution, and the leaders of Iraq have yielded their authority peaceably to the winners of that election. Those are facts; and talk of ‘representative government’ in its place is a call for regime change, the destruction of a form of government Iraq has chosen for itself over a year’s time.
The Baker Commission has applied its massive inexperience with wartime policy, and wandered into a fantasy land where the United States will keep its supposedly “unsustainable” committment to Iraq for six months, but aim it at creating a pocket dictator we can do business with. Nuts.
A word on the “failure due to lack of resources committed”. Those resources were more troops. More troops earlier on would have resulted in fiercer, more frequent firefights, and higher casualties, which is exactly what the doves find intolerable in Iraq.
We have got more arguing to do in 2007, but it is the same argument we’ve been winning for three years and will continue to win regardless of what politician or bureaucrat makes it. There is no Prominent Hawk with the juice to bring down the war, but the doves do keep making casting calls.
The existence of militias and other irregular factions indicates a ferment of Iraqi popular opinion unsatisfied by simple loyalty to the existing government. This could be and should be addressed by promoting grassroots nonviolent political activism and more populist local government. That is not the same as destroying the federal government and picking Our Man In Baghdad out of a lineup of warlords; and unless the conservative movement is totally incompetent from the top down, that case can be made to the American public in 2007.
7:32 pm
Lets face the facts there have been major mistakes made in fighting
this war,leadership is key, some of the flag officers qualifications
! I have a Brother-inlaw that is a Muslim from
are more than suspect…Trying to fight a political correct war
boarders on the insane and gets fine troops killed for nothing and
make that clear killed for nothing…Collateral damage scares the
hell out of this administration and thats what scares the hell out
of me,you go to war to win not to play games and collateral damage
be damned, if the rest of the world is P/O at us to damned bad
they can K O A…As for more troops on the ground you bet your sweet
a$$ it would have made a difference, we should have and could have
smashed those clowns into dust…We didn’t win WW-2 by playing games
and wasting the troops lives we broke the enemys will to fight,how,
by killing mass numbers of the SOB’s. We have the finest bunch of
Troops in the world and its a bloody shame if we let them down
and I just love the statement we need to promote grassroots
nonviolent political activism,man you don’t have a clue what these
folks are about
Pakistan and when the radicals say convert to Islam or die belive
me they arn’t screwing around..while your at it check out what the
MSM is not reporting that is going on right now in Francr,Sweden
Denmark and England,check it out and see if your grassroots B/S will
work with those folks!!
7:37 pm
Whats with the litle white box with the red x???
Damn does that mean the tinfoil hat gang is out to
get me or does white man speak with forked tonuge!!
10:18 pm
Here I thought it was funny when Bushie had to go crying to daddy to come fix his mess.
But this post takes the cake! The term Nuthouse is very appropriate given the whacko crack your writing.
10:51 pm
Back in your box troll,from the Bushie had to go crying to daddy to come fix his mess looks like you do more than speak with forked
tonuge white eye!!
11:20 pm
I examined what would happen if we withdraw on my blog in this post.
http://www.poorschmuck.net/archives/011205.html”
If we give up in Iraq it will not be seen as a simple retreat by the rest of the world. It will be seen as a defeat. That, coupled with the previous perceived defeats in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia will be the end of American influence for good or bad in most of the world. In the absence of American power someone else will move in. I don’t know if it will be Russia, China, Iran or someone that we haven’t even noticed, but it will be someone and it won’t be us.
12:55 am
Remember what mr. baker said about the jews during
the gulf war he is a muslim lover
5:11 am
“So, the main COG after killing the personnel/leaders, is to TRY and win the hearts and minds Iraqis, and to AGRESSIVELY take advantage of the atrocities that Al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgents continue to commit against the local populace!
If you’ve been paying ANY attention at ALL, to the news that comes out of Iraq, from Al Qaeda and the Insurgents themselves, they are only TOO painfully aware, that this is their Achilles Heel, adn that they are in fact, LOSING this aspect of the War itself!”
You actually imagine that, at this stage, there is any chance whatsoever of winning Iraqi hearts and minds?
How on earth are you planning to do that? It certainly won’t work to say “Well, we’ve bombed your neighbours, flattened a couple of cities, blown up most of your economy and wasted your (and our) money as best we could, but now, from this day forward we’re on your side…”
I mean, in the reverse position, would you now believe a word said by your occupiers?
Sometimes it is too late for even the best strategy to succeed.
5:52 am
[...] IRAQ: THE WITHDRAWAL CLOCK IS OFFICIALLY TICKING [...]
9:08 am
What is happening now is simply a necessary phase in the war. America must lose and lose credibility, setting the stage for a return to isolationism…to be followed by another massive attack on our homeland. There was no way that we would learn from a single attack. The Bush Doctrine was a noble but premature attempt to avert the next disaster that we have coming. Americans have no stomach for a fight until we are gazing down at that stomach through a gaping wound in our viscera. Half of America doesn’t even know who our enemy is, preferring to blame their own culture for Islamism. When the next attack comes what is now a schism in America may just become internecine battle. The only hope is that the next attack comes when a Democrat is in control—for that is the only way they will support a meaningful response.
5:35 pm
Drongo: You know, I don’t even know why I waste my eInk on nuts like you!
It’s a complete waste of time, trying talk, rational, logic, sense and commonsense to Leftists!
First, you have NO commonsense, second, your intellecutal capability is severely atrophied, due to decades of inculcation by Leftists, anti-American Academia in America; third, because of your short-sightedness and Leftist proclivities, you avoid like the plauge, service in your country’s military services; you have no practical experience in the world, the military, the government; uusally your only major experience in life is having taken a weekend spring break trip to Cancun, or Aruba, where you spent the majority of the time drunk, high, and/or trying to get on some sex-act video so it could be uploaded to some $14.95/per month pay-porn site.
Your entire raison d’etre, is HATE - Bush, HATE - American; and there is NOTHING, that anyone can say or do, to wipe away the sometimes decades of brainwashing that has been absorbed by your petty minds courtesy of Academia, the Leftists, and the MSM; which your cranial cavity has sopped up like a diabetic in a candy store.
With your Leftist and facile upbringings, and your ludicrous modern educations; you have NO foundation whatsoever in Citizenship, History, Anthropology, Sociology, Military History, Geography, World History, Western Civilization, the Classics, Social Studies, etc.
Instead, you know all about “Kwanza”, and the fact that we now have a “Fall Festival” and a “Winter Festival”, because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they’re Anti-American, and thus GOOD!
Thus, you cannot put ANYTHING into HISTORICAL Context, because you are fundalmentally INCAPABLE, and thus we come Fullcircle, with you askeing the totally INANE question you ask above, which can ONLY be asked, if you have NO idea what you are asking, or why you are asking it, because you are completely operating off of the Leftist meme, that sounds like Homer Simpson (one of your cultural heroes, I’m sure??) on Duff Beer: Bush….BAAAAAADDDD, Iraq WAAAAAAAARRRR BAAAAAAADDDDD!
First, let me state; having actually WORN the uniform of a Marine Officer and Intelligence specialist for a Dozen years, and having served in Iraq, the fist time, I ACTUALLY HAVE some practical Experience, Background, and KNOWLEDGE of that which I speak; UNLIKE 99.99% of the clueless Jacobites I foolishly waste my time trying to educate; I might as well spend my time knocking my head against a brick wall, for all the good it does me, but I’m a patient man, and the future of our Country depends upon me Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder!
So, as a former Marine, and UNLIKE Lefists, who courtesy Hillary Clinton, figured out the “we care for the troops, but we don’t support the war..” meme, back in 2001; which by the way, is a COMPLETE lie; you despise the Military, and everything it has ever done, because it’s very existence is testimony that like all good Lefists, it has enabled you to be what you ARE, today, without you all EVER having had to make a contribution to it at all!, and thus you are driven by guilt and self-hate as a result of your concious decision to avoid Military Service, and thus you all seize upon the “we support the troops” line, hypocrasy and lies coming out of YOUR mouths, to attempt to protect and insulate yourselves against the anti-Patriotic and anti-American labels you so richly deserve; so unlike you, I ACTUALLY DO CARE about the “troops”, because I also have served, and I know what it’s like, and I still have dozens of friends, colleagues, and peers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the past 5 years; and I think about them, and their families, every day, and communicate with them, and worry about them, and grieve for them!
Again, unlike All you LEFTISTS; who proudly tout the latest casualty figures, and number of wounded, and amount of Iraqi citizens killed; NOT BECAUSE you give a DAMN about any of them, but because you’re so blinded by BUSH HATE, you caprisiously and callouslly will use any/all ammunition you can, to undermine and destroy a sitting President, in a time of war, for NO OTHER REASON than because he’s a Republican, he’s a Christian, and because he’s NOT a Democrat and because he’s the Anti-Clinton, and because you HATE him because YOUR IDOL Clinton was IMPEACHED, and is a complete and utterly morally bankrupt fool; which is a reflection back on you, again!
Now, let me put some things in Historical context for you, since you lack the capability to do so yourself!
What the Union did, to the population of the South, during the Civil War, and what the Allies did to the Germans and the Japanese, on many SINGLE DAYS, outweighed ANYTHING that has happened in Afghanistan, and Iraq, to all concerned: Miliary and Civilian, COMBINED, over the past FIVE YEARS!
Do I need to REPEAT that for you?
And in fact, it’s even worse, if you put it further into Historical Context, by stating that the population of the United States for example was exactly HALF of what it is today; and so was the World Population as well; so ANYTHING that happened, per capita-wise, during WWII for example, was exactly, or more, than DOUBLE what the same effect would be today, for the same action!
For example, WHEN ON ONE SINGLE NIGHT, OF BOMBING TOKYO, IN 1944 18 SQUARE MILES OF TOKYO WAS DESTROYED, AND OVER 100,000 JAPANESE CIVILIANS WERE KILLED; Yes, that’s right on ONE NIGHT, 100,000 CIVILIAN DEAD, in ONE City, on ONE Night!; that would be the equivalent of 200,000+ dead today!, IN ONE NIGHT!
American dead, total out of WWII; in Four years of Combat: ~495,000; basically ONE MILLION equivalent Military dead, per capita, today; that’s just the dead, doesn’t include the wounded, the civilians, etc.
So far, in Iraq & Afghanistan, in five years; we’ve lost ~3000 dead; the equivalent of ~1500 in WWII!, TOTAL!
Do you know what the casualty figures were per WEEK in WWII, for American military: 5000! PER WEEK!
I can do the same for the Civilians; even the most ludicrous of Leftists estimates (and NOT the complete BS that came out last week); put Iraqi-Afghanistan civilian casualties over the past five years at between 50,000 – 150,000; when you factor in the demographics I mentioned, that’s 25,000 – 75,000 in WWII terms, TOTAL in FIVE YEARS!
That’s not even equivalent to ONE NIGHT bombing into Dresden and Tokyo!
Hell, Winston Churchill, to PROTECT his equivalent of the NSA listening Program, “allowed” the Luftwaffe to bomb the English city of Coventry, and 10,000 of his FELLOW citizens died that night!, alone!
Now, your Leftist sensibilities are screaming out at this point: MURDERER, you have no regard for human life, you want people to die, you’re excusing the murder of innocents, and you don’t care about your fellow military etc., etc.!
CRAP! I’ve already Debunked that bullcrap, which you’ll try to pull anyway; I have a HIGHER regard for ANY/ALL life than you’ll EVER have, because I’ve been in the position where my own, and the lives of others were VERY PRECIOUS to me; that is why I care, and I grieve, whereas for you all, it’s the ends to a political means, and you have absolutely have NO shame about exploiting it as such!
Any asshole can take a life; preserving one is the real challenge!
But I’m also a REALIST; my wants and desires don’t mean squat in the world, my wants and desires and care for human life, didn’t keep the Japanese from bombing Pearl Harbor, unsolicited, and murdering 1400 fellow American military men/women in their bunks, while most of them slept!
My wants/desires didn’t keep Al Qaeda from murdering 3000 of my fellow citizens, while they were at their desks, catching up on their emails, or drinking their coffee, or thinking about when they had to leave work to go home to their kid’s soccer game!
And my want’s and desires, are NOT going to keep the same assholes, from setting off a suitcase nuke in downtown Manhattan, as SOON as they get a chance, and murdering 2 MILLION more of my fellow citizens!
Hey Drongo, there are BAD people in the world, they don’t think like you and me; life is disposable to them; they could give a shit if you “like” them, and just want to get along, and that you’re culturally sensitive, and want to reach out to them!
They’re like that, because they ARE; not because Bush is a bad person, or American is a bad country, or becuase we’ve ever done anything to them; they’re like that because their Religion tells them to be like that, and tells them it’s okay; and tells them that by murdering us, they’ll go to heaven, and they’ll get 72 virgins and 24 prebubescent boys to ravish (check out “Ghilman’s in the “Wiki” if you don’t believe me)!
Drongo, they don’t give a crap! So you can wallow in your self-hate, and self-guilt, and your reflexive Anti-Americanism; that’s fine, they’ll smile in your face, and slit your throat while you’re still wallowing in self-pity and hate for Bush!
ME; I’m not giving them the chance!
So, we HAD better succeed in Iraq, it’s the “BIG IDEA”; we HAVE NO choice, otherwise, sooner or later, it’s World War, against the Islamic Caliphate, and you Quislings and worshipers of Neville Chamberlain, will be running to people like me, and crying going “why didn’t anyone warn us….”, and hiding behind your skirts, as people like ME, die to protect your sorry asses!
So, to get back to your original point; I don’t CARE whether we can win the Iraqi hearts and minds, RIGHT now; we didn’t try to win the Japanese and German hearts and minds either; SIXTY YEARS AGO, we WON the DAMN WAR First, and their HEARTS and MINDS came after; if you have any doubt, go visit Germany and Japan NOW, and see what WE accomplished over there; NOT THEM; US, the United States enabled them to be the countries they are now, 60years later; and we earned it with the blood of our young men and women; because despite the pain, and suffering, and the deaths of innocents, WE made the WORLD a BETTER PLACE!
That’s a FACT, and it’s also a FACT that bothers LEFTISTS as well, so they just ignore it!
Thus, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the pain, the suffering, the dead Americans and dead Iraqis and dead Afghanistanis; it IS NECESSARY; we ARE going to make the World, in the LONG RUN, ad better place, we are going to transform a Murderous Ideology; and we HAVE to do, for the sake of US, and THEM, in the long run!
And if you don’t understand that, there is NO hope for you, or your fellow anti-American Jacobites!
10:32 pm
(2)Davebo Said:
3:32 pm
“Damn that leftest defeatist Baker! ”
guess again, Davebo.
If you read the piece, the important part is toward the bottom, where Mr. Baker says
”
If we are able to promote representative, representative government, not necessarily democracy, in a number of nations in the Middle East and bring more freedom to the people of that part of the world, it will have been a success,†he said.
That distinction is crucial, according to one member of the expert working groups. “Baker wants to believe that Sunni dictators in Sunni majority states are representative,†the group member, who requested anonymity, said.
”
See, he is a “realist”. That is a portion of the Foreign service that believes that “yes, he is a bastard, but he is our bastard”.
Jimmy B has a long and cosy history with the Saudi’s and this Democracy thing is rocking his boat.
If you know history and politics, Davebo, you would know that the far right and the far left actually hold similar positions on many things.
That is why Hitler could be a Socialist. Both the far left and far right believe that dictatorships are more effective than messy democracy.
8:24 am
“First, you have NO commonsense, second, your intellecutal capability is severely atrophied, due to decades of inculcation by Leftists, anti-American Academia in America; third, because of your short-sightedness and Leftist proclivities, you avoid like the plauge, service in your country’s military services; you have no practical experience in the world, the military, the government; uusally your only major experience in life is having taken a weekend spring break trip to Cancun, or Aruba, where you spent the majority of the time drunk, high, and/or trying to get on some sex-act video so it could be uploaded to some $14.95/per month pay-porn site.”
Goodness me, you certainly can tell a lot about me from that little bit, can’t you. Unfortunately you are wrong in almost every particular, apart from the military service part. Coming from a military family, I considered the Royal Navy as a career but decided that I wanted a more stable lifestyle in which to raise a family.
“Instead, you know all about “Kwanzaâ€, and the fact that we now have a “Fall Festival†and a “Winter Festivalâ€, because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they’re Anti-American, and thus GOOD!”
Sorry, I have no idea what “Kwanza” is, and celebrate Christmas and Halloween. I’ve never been to a fall festival in my life, nor do I even know what one is.
“Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder!”
OK. Sounds like fun.
“What the Union did, to the population of the South, during the Civil War, and what the Allies did to the Germans and the Japanese, on many SINGLE DAYS, outweighed ANYTHING that has happened in Afghanistan, and Iraq, to all concerned: Miliary and Civilian, COMBINED, over the past FIVE YEARS!”
Yeeees. That’s knid of obvious, isn’t it. But then you’re not fighting a war to conquer, are you. You are fighting a war to liberate, aren’t you?
“Now, your Leftist sensibilities are screaming out at this point: MURDERER, you have no regard for human life, you want people to die, you’re excusing the murder of innocents, and you don’t care about your fellow military etc., etc.!”
No, they aren’t. Sorry to disappoint. My sensibilities are saying “What’s your point?”.
“My wants/desires didn’t keep Al Qaeda from murdering 3000 of my fellow citizens, while they were at their desks, catching up on their emails, or drinking their coffee, or thinking about when they had to leave work to go home to their kid’s soccer game!”
No, that was piss poor intelligence work, wasn’t it.
I am still not really getting your point. What does this have to do with the war in Iraq?
“Hey Drongo, there are BAD people in the world, they don’t think like you and me; life is disposable to them; they could give a shit if you “like†them, and just want to get along, and that you’re culturally sensitive, and want to reach out to them!”
Yes, I know. Do you think that the war in Iraq has increased or decreased to number of people who hate us enough to harm us?
“Drongo, they don’t give a crap! So you can wallow in your self-hate, and self-guilt, and your reflexive Anti-Americanism; that’s fine, they’ll smile in your face, and slit your throat while you’re still wallowing in self-pity and hate for Bush!”
Well, the chance of any of them trying to slit my throat are remarkably low, since I live in the home counties. Not a whole lot of Islamicly driven murders around here. And I tend to wallow in the confort of my life, not in any form of hatred. I must say, though it grieves me to say it, that you seem to have some serious issues with some of your fellow citizens.
“So, we HAD better succeed in Iraq, it’s the “BIG IDEAâ€; we HAVE NO choice, otherwise, sooner or later, it’s World War, against the Islamic Caliphate, and you Quislings and worshipers of Neville Chamberlain, will be running to people like me, and crying going “why didn’t anyone warn us….â€, and hiding behind your skirts, as people like ME, die to protect your sorry asses!”
I still fail to see how the Islamic caliphate is going to invade the UK or the US. What are they going to do? Load up surplus military hardware on a tanker and invade Kent? How are they planning to deal with the obvious threat of nuclear destruction?
“So, to get back to your original point; I don’t CARE whether we can win the Iraqi hearts and minds, RIGHT now; we didn’t try to win the Japanese and German hearts and minds either; SIXTY YEARS AGO, we WON the DAMN WAR First, and their HEARTS and MINDS came after; if you have any doubt, go visit Germany and Japan NOW, and see what WE accomplished over there; NOT THEM; US, the United States enabled them to be the countries they are now, 60years later; and we earned it with the blood of our young men and women; because despite the pain, and suffering, and the deaths of innocents, WE made the WORLD a BETTER PLACE!”
Well, yes, but then you didn’t have to deal with an insurgency as active as this one, did you, powered by religious fanaticism. A war was fought, lots of people died, the countries surrendered and then reconstruction and reintegration proceeded. This is pretty obviously not the war that is going on in Iraq. In Iraq there is no-one to surrender, there is no decisive battle to win, there is no strategic hinges to attack.
It strikes me that the example of WWII is the worst possible one to use as your view of this war. You know perfectly well that steel on target is not going to do the job in CI warfare. It never has and it never will. You’re a marine for goodness sake, of all the US military branches you guys are the innovators, the ones who recognise the situation for what it is not what you want it to be because you are in the thick of it. Above you made that clear.
Your argument about deaths in WWII vs Iraq is like saying that since you used a large explosive charge to demolish a building, a stick of dynamite would be the best way to open your stuck front door.
Killing a million Iraqis is not going to produce an improved situation in Iraq. Killing 10 million or so might do it.
“Thus, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the pain, the suffering, the dead Americans and dead Iraqis and dead Afghanistanis; it IS NECESSARY; we ARE going to make the World, in the LONG RUN, ad better place, we are going to transform a Murderous Ideology; and we HAVE to do, for the sake of US, and THEM, in the long run!”
OK, you are going to make the world a better place. Since, obviously, the current strategy in Iraq is just producing a failed vacuum of a state which will, and does, provide a perfect recruiting and training ground for terrorists, this strategy needs to change. It is just as clear that Islam, as a political force in Iraq is vastly more influential and organised than it was 5 years ago. Presumably you regard this as a bad thing (I know that I do).
The strategy at the moment obviously isn’t working. What should be being done differently that might lead to an improved state. Lets pick “Less Islamic nutcases” as the indicator of success.
8:59 am
“Less Islamic nutcases†as the indicator of success.”
Drongo: You are a gracious man, in the face of an over done, and unprovoked assault!
I’ve took your post, as the opportunity to unload about 3 weeks of backed up bile from reading a combination of about 6 other blogs, where serious people are having serious discussions about the future of our civilization, and our country, and where a bunch of Leftist Trolls, take the oppportunity at every turn, to inject their complete and utter bullshit, and I had just had enough, and I lashed out at you!
Your last comment, the one to start this post, is the most apropos!
Cheers
Dale
10:10 am
“Drongo: You are a gracious man, in the face of an over done, and unprovoked assault!”
That’s OK, I’ve got a thick skin and I figured that you weren’t really talking to me.
“Less Islamic nutcases†as the indicator of success.â€
you might not be so happy when I tell you that I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic nutcases. I broadly seperate them as people for whom Islam is a part of their life but not their driving force and people for whom Islam is their driving force. Thus one way to reduce Islamic nutcases is to turn them into plain and simple Muslims. Another way, obviously, is to kill them. My thesis is that killing them tends to influence more Muslims into being Islamic nutcases by driving them into the arms of the most obvious protective umberella available.
That’s why I said that killing a million Iraqis will not improve the strategic situation. It will just make a vast proportion of the rest turn more strongly to religion, leading to more nutcases.
The problem is how to reduce the number of Islamic nutcases. Simply reducing the number of Muslims is unlikely to achieve that, in my opinion.
I’m not asking the question to make a point. I’m asking the question because I honestly don’t know what the answers even look like these days. At the start of the Iraq war I had a pretty accurate picture of how things were going to work out. I thought that the “Flowers and parades” plan was just far too optimistic, and I also thought that the people planning the occupation obviously didn’t know and didn’t want to know what they were getting into. So, sectarian strife, abuses on all sides, mass killings, all the fun of the fair.
Now we have in front of us a falling apart state, with a civil war on the go and a heavy dose of radicalism on the side.
The first thing that one needs to do when considering a strategy (as in any project) is “What are we trying to achieve”. Only when that has been explored can one go onto “How can we achieve that”, because otherwise you have no way to measure success or failure, and with no means to measure success or failure you cannot change tactics meaningfully.
Killing people simply isn’t working. Having elections isn’t working. Building up Iraqi security forces isn’t working. It seems that everything that we do makes more Islamic nutcases.
So, “What are we trying to achieve?”
11:25 am
Drongo: “you might not be so happy when I tell you that I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic nutcases”
Drongo, no, I’m not upset; if you could pull anything useful out of my previous rant, I did not Advocate killing EVERY Muslim in the world!
Never would do that, and didn’t mean to imply that!
I’ve lived over there a great portion of my life, I have many Muslim friends, that I communicate with on a weekly basis, from as long as 30 years ago!
My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the “numbers” without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that!
And, having been part of the military myself, I’ve NEVER seen anyone, deliberately “target” anyone, just to kill Muslims; though, I know, I know, we have cases of individuals, who have gone crazy, and done BAD things, no doubt, but it is NOT US policy; never has been.
I’m a firm believer like you, though, in killing as many “Islamic Nutcaes” as we can hunt down and kill, because that is the ONLY thing that THEY understand!
For the first time in the History of Warfare, the goals of the two sides are the same: They WANT to Die, to go to Paradise, and we WANT to Kill them; so our goals are NOT mutually exclusive, like when you are fighting a “normal” enemy; whose primary goal is to remain alive, and kill you instead!
You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little “insurgency” going in Germany, for a year or more, where not only American/Allied military personnel were attacked and killed by Waffen SS “insurgents”, but they also attacked civilians, and even American dependents who had come over!
Now, I’m NOT in anyway equating the seriousness of that, with what’s happening in Iraq today, because Iraq has FAR exceeded that, but I will just point it out, because people do, again, lose sight of the historical context, and thing that Japan and Germany both stopped fighting on a certain day, and from that day forward, everything came up roses, and that is FAR from the case!
For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, “goodwill”, to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn.
Paul Bremer was the biggest cause; the abolition of the Iraqi Army, overnight, launched the insurgency the next day!
The stupidest move I’ve ever seen, and I couldnt’ believe it when it happened!
He blames Rumsfield, I don’t know what Rumsfield says; I blame Bremer himself.
Hell, even MacArthur wasn’t stupid enough to disband the Japanese Imperial Army after WWII!
We should’ve issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a “de-Bathistfication” plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan!
Found an IMMEDIATE STRONG Iraqi “face” to lead the nation, and worry about elections later, etc.
I mean the CPA screwed the pooch at every turn, turned the Iraqi Army into the Insurgents, which gave Al Qaeda/Zarqawi an excuse to come in, start attacking the Shi’ites, and we have what we have now! A complete cluster F#$%!
Answers: I’d be a millionaire if I knew the EXACT answer!
I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something “in-between”; what exactly, I’m still working that out…
4:30 pm
“I did not Advocate killing EVERY Muslim in the world!”
Didn’t think that you did, though I’ve become very concerned by the number of people that I have read advocating such mass slaughter, or even nuking places like Iran pre-emptively and massively. Frankly, some people have forgotten some of the other lessons of WWII and it scares me.
“My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the “numbers†without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that!”
The point being made in these claims is usually a comment on the stated reason for the invasion, and the later “Liberation and democracy” goals. The point is to say “If 600,000 extra people have died then we have failed to liberate them”. It is an attempt to measure success.
“You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little “insurgency†going in Germany”
Yes, I did know that as it happens (I am a big history fan…) but it was of a very different stripe. There you were definitely facing people without a hope of success, and with little popular support by that stage.
As you say, Iraq is a very different kettle of fish.
“For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, “goodwillâ€, to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn.”
I was reading Tim Collins book on his time in Iraq a couple of weeks ago and I was struck by how difficult the job he had was. Success was just taken as a given by the politicians, but it was obviously far more difficult than imagined.
“We should’ve issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a “de-Bathistfication†plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan!”
I agree with every word, with one change. I’d have made a point, the next day of praising their courage, both in fighting and in surrendering in the face of Saddam’s reprisals, their dedication to the free people’s of Iraq and their part in the formation of a new Iraq.
Then I’d have given them a payrise.
“I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something “in-betweenâ€; what exactly, I’m still working that out…”
See, that’s where I’ve ended up and I can’t think of anything so I am defaulting to looking after our own. I advocate withdrawl, but only out of the hopelessness of the situation. Not popular I imagine, but everything so far has made things worse.
2:12 am
Rick, c’mon, this is a pretty lousy post. We’re losing in Iraq because our national will to win isn’t strong enough? Are you kidding me?
We don’t have enough troops there to provide security, quell the violence and stabilize the situation. To blame our inability to accomplish the above on a lackluster cheering section back home is just dumb.
Please, take off the partisan blinders for five seconds, especially if you’re going to talk about the war. If you want to go through the litany of talking points regarding taxes, abortion or gay marriage, by all means, have at it. But this is a WAR, our men and women in Iraq deserve more (from both sides) then lazy, asinine, dishonest, partisan arguments.
With that being said, I enjoy your site, even when it sends my blood pressure through the roof! I’ll step off my soapbox now.
8:49 am
Drongo: “See, that’s where I’ve ended up and I can’t think of anything so I am defaulting to looking after our own. I advocate withdrawl, but only out of the hopelessness of the situation. Not popular I imagine, but everything so far has made things worse.”
I’m so frustrated with this Administration; I’m not naturally a Democrat, though I was raised in a very liberal time; my families orientation growing up, was probably more “Republican”; BUT, it was also quite evident, that you Voted on WHO the PERSON was; and what they would do, and you didn’t Vote PARTY!
So, it was not at all a problem, that my parents voted for Kennedy, then Nixon!
It was OBVIOUS, that Carter was to be avoided, same with Dukkakis, same with Mondale, same with Gore, same with Kerry!
Clinton was a more complex issue; Bush Sr. had major problems; and he finally got voted against!
Same with Dole!
Frankly, I didn’t vote for this President in 2000; couldn’t do it, based upon what I disliked about his father in 1992!
But, I couldn’t vote for Gore either; so I sat that one out! Probably the reason why the election was so close!
In 2004, I HAD to vote, it was too important for the country; and there was really only ONE Choice, Bush, and…....well, as I said, there was only one choice, I don’t even acknowledge who the other individual was….
However, just to establish MY track record on this: I’ve been consistent my whole life on this: not only vote for the BEST person; but also, ALWAYS, support EVERY President when they use the Military!
That’s immutable to me!
Thus, even though, it was OBVIOUS that Clinton did at least Two “tail wagging the dog” scenarios to escape the heat of the Lewinsky mess, I supported him FULLY; same with Kosovo; same with whatever.
So, I supported Bush too!
And Bush Sr, and Reagan, and Carter, and Nixon all too, when they deemed it necessary to use military action; usually I was critical that various ones, didn’t use it ENOUGH (Carter, Clinton).
Anyway, I just say all this, so you know I’m not an apologist for this President or Administration. In fact, my opinion of Bush, prior to 9/11, is that he would server out a fairly undistinguished first term, and then Fail to be re-elected to a second term, just like his father.
That all changed after 9/11; and it certainly made his election a certainty, after Kerry was nominated!
The Democrats are suicideal that way! It’s amazing…
Anyway, my point to all of this; you advocate Withdrawal; I cannot!
I can see the “big picture”; and it’s important.
I know Iraq is a “mess”; this Administration has done many things wrong; including, FAILING to adequately “sell” this war to the public, for the CORRECT reasons; failing to make it part of the Larger GWOT, which it IS, and WAS, failing to “sell” to the public, the larger threat, and why Iraq and Afghanistan ARE important, etc.
They only attempt to “sell” it, when it gets so back, it seems ready to collapse, they come out for a week or two, and then, go back to letting the Leftist MSM “frame” the debate!
No wonder public support/perception of it is so low.
Bottomline for ME: is that this is an Epic event, it is a “big idea”; it is a Cause, that we NEED to win; otherwise, the end result, ten, twenty years from now, IS a World War/Clash of Civilizations/Muslims against Christians, to the death!
I think it is THAT important!
Therefore, I cannot adocate withdraw, no matter how messy it is, and no matter what cost appears to be, right now.
Those are my Personal beliefs, don’t ask for “Proof”, on some of them, it’s gut instinct, and “proof” is ephermeral!
Someone else, can make the Exact OPPOSITE arguments, I know, on everything!
Anyways, just my thoughts, and reasons…