I’m so frustrated with this Administration; I’m not naturally a Democrat, though I was raised in a very liberal time; my families orientation growing up, was probably more “Republican”; BUT, it was also quite evident, that you Voted on WHO the PERSON was; and what they would do, and you didn’t Vote PARTY!

So, it was not at all a problem, that my parents voted for Kennedy, then Nixon!

It was OBVIOUS, that Carter was to be avoided, same with Dukkakis, same with Mondale, same with Gore, same with Kerry!

Clinton was a more complex issue; Bush Sr. had major problems; and he finally got voted against!

Same with Dole!

Frankly, I didn’t vote for this President in 2000; couldn’t do it, based upon what I disliked about his father in 1992!

But, I couldn’t vote for Gore either; so I sat that one out! Probably the reason why the election was so close!

In 2004, I HAD to vote, it was too important for the country; and there was really only ONE Choice, Bush, and…….well, as I said, there was only one choice, I don’t even acknowledge who the other individual was….

However, just to establish MY track record on this: I’ve been consistent my whole life on this: not only vote for the BEST person; but also, ALWAYS, support EVERY President when they use the Military!

That’s immutable to me!

Thus, even though, it was OBVIOUS that Clinton did at least Two “tail wagging the dog” scenarios to escape the heat of the Lewinsky mess, I supported him FULLY; same with Kosovo; same with whatever.

So, I supported Bush too!

And Bush Sr, and Reagan, and Carter, and Nixon all too, when they deemed it necessary to use military action; usually I was critical that various ones, didn’t use it ENOUGH (Carter, Clinton).

Anyway, I just say all this, so you know I’m not an apologist for this President or Administration. In fact, my opinion of Bush, prior to 9/11, is that he would server out a fairly undistinguished first term, and then Fail to be re-elected to a second term, just like his father.

That all changed after 9/11; and it certainly made his election a certainty, after Kerry was nominated!

The Democrats are suicideal that way! It’s amazing…

Anyway, my point to all of this; you advocate Withdrawal; I cannot!

I can see the “big picture”; and it’s important.

I know Iraq is a “mess”; this Administration has done many things wrong; including, FAILING to adequately “sell” this war to the public, for the CORRECT reasons; failing to make it part of the Larger GWOT, which it IS, and WAS, failing to “sell” to the public, the larger threat, and why Iraq and Afghanistan ARE important, etc.

They only attempt to “sell” it, when it gets so back, it seems ready to collapse, they come out for a week or two, and then, go back to letting the Leftist MSM “frame” the debate!

No wonder public support/perception of it is so low.

Bottomline for ME: is that this is an Epic event, it is a “big idea”; it is a Cause, that we NEED to win; otherwise, the end result, ten, twenty years from now, IS a World War/Clash of Civilizations/Muslims against Christians, to the death!

I think it is THAT important!

Therefore, I cannot adocate withdraw, no matter how messy it is, and no matter what cost appears to be, right now.

Those are my Personal beliefs, don’t ask for “Proof”, on some of them, it’s gut instinct, and “proof” is ephermeral!

Someone else, can make the Exact OPPOSITE arguments, I know, on everything!

Anyways, just my thoughts, and reasons…

We don’t have enough troops there to provide security, quell the violence and stabilize the situation. To blame our inability to accomplish the above on a lackluster cheering section back home is just dumb.

Please, take off the partisan blinders for five seconds, especially if you’re going to talk about the war. If you want to go through the litany of talking points regarding taxes, abortion or gay marriage, by all means, have at it. But this is a WAR, our men and women in Iraq deserve more (from both sides) then lazy, asinine, dishonest, partisan arguments.

With that being said, I enjoy your site, even when it sends my blood pressure through the roof! I’ll step off my soapbox now.

Didn’t think that you did, though I’ve become very concerned by the number of people that I have read advocating such mass slaughter, or even nuking places like Iran pre-emptively and massively. Frankly, some people have forgotten some of the other lessons of WWII and it scares me.

“My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the “numbers” without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that!”

The point being made in these claims is usually a comment on the stated reason for the invasion, and the later “Liberation and democracy” goals. The point is to say “If 600,000 extra people have died then we have failed to liberate them”. It is an attempt to measure success.

“You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little “insurgency” going in Germany”

Yes, I did know that as it happens (I am a big history fan…) but it was of a very different stripe. There you were definitely facing people without a hope of success, and with little popular support by that stage.

As you say, Iraq is a very different kettle of fish.

“For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, “goodwill”, to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn.”

I was reading Tim Collins book on his time in Iraq a couple of weeks ago and I was struck by how difficult the job he had was. Success was just taken as a given by the politicians, but it was obviously far more difficult than imagined.

“We should’ve issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a “de-Bathistfication” plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan!”

I agree with every word, with one change. I’d have made a point, the next day of praising their courage, both in fighting and in surrendering in the face of Saddam’s reprisals, their dedication to the free people’s of Iraq and their part in the formation of a new Iraq.

Then I’d have given them a payrise.

“I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something “in-between”; what exactly, I’m still working that out…”

See, that’s where I’ve ended up and I can’t think of anything so I am defaulting to looking after our own. I advocate withdrawl, but only out of the hopelessness of the situation. Not popular I imagine, but everything so far has made things worse.

Drongo, no, I’m not upset; if you could pull anything useful out of my previous rant, I did not Advocate killing EVERY Muslim in the world!

Never would do that, and didn’t mean to imply that!

I’ve lived over there a great portion of my life, I have many Muslim friends, that I communicate with on a weekly basis, from as long as 30 years ago!

My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the “numbers” without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that!

And, having been part of the military myself, I’ve NEVER seen anyone, deliberately “target” anyone, just to kill Muslims; though, I know, I know, we have cases of individuals, who have gone crazy, and done BAD things, no doubt, but it is NOT US policy; never has been.

I’m a firm believer like you, though, in killing as many “Islamic Nutcaes” as we can hunt down and kill, because that is the ONLY thing that THEY understand!

For the first time in the History of Warfare, the goals of the two sides are the same: They WANT to Die, to go to Paradise, and we WANT to Kill them; so our goals are NOT mutually exclusive, like when you are fighting a “normal” enemy; whose primary goal is to remain alive, and kill you instead!

You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little “insurgency” going in Germany, for a year or more, where not only American/Allied military personnel were attacked and killed by Waffen SS “insurgents”, but they also attacked civilians, and even American dependents who had come over!

Now, I’m NOT in anyway equating the seriousness of that, with what’s happening in Iraq today, because Iraq has FAR exceeded that, but I will just point it out, because people do, again, lose sight of the historical context, and thing that Japan and Germany both stopped fighting on a certain day, and from that day forward, everything came up roses, and that is FAR from the case!

For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, “goodwill”, to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn.

Paul Bremer was the biggest cause; the abolition of the Iraqi Army, overnight, launched the insurgency the next day!

The stupidest move I’ve ever seen, and I couldnt’ believe it when it happened!

He blames Rumsfield, I don’t know what Rumsfield says; I blame Bremer himself.

Hell, even MacArthur wasn’t stupid enough to disband the Japanese Imperial Army after WWII!

We should’ve issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a “de-Bathistfication” plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan!

Found an IMMEDIATE STRONG Iraqi “face” to lead the nation, and worry about elections later, etc.

I mean the CPA screwed the pooch at every turn, turned the Iraqi Army into the Insurgents, which gave Al Qaeda/Zarqawi an excuse to come in, start attacking the Shi’ites, and we have what we have now! A complete cluster F#$%!

Answers: I’d be a millionaire if I knew the EXACT answer!

I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something “in-between”; what exactly, I’m still working that out…

That’s OK, I’ve got a thick skin and I figured that you weren’t really talking to me.

“Less Islamic nutcases” as the indicator of success.”

you might not be so happy when I tell you that I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic nutcases. I broadly seperate them as people for whom Islam is a part of their life but not their driving force and people for whom Islam is their driving force. Thus one way to reduce Islamic nutcases is to turn them into plain and simple Muslims. Another way, obviously, is to kill them. My thesis is that killing them tends to influence more Muslims into being Islamic nutcases by driving them into the arms of the most obvious protective umberella available.

That’s why I said that killing a million Iraqis will not improve the strategic situation. It will just make a vast proportion of the rest turn more strongly to religion, leading to more nutcases.

The problem is how to reduce the number of Islamic nutcases. Simply reducing the number of Muslims is unlikely to achieve that, in my opinion.

I’m not asking the question to make a point. I’m asking the question because I honestly don’t know what the answers even look like these days. At the start of the Iraq war I had a pretty accurate picture of how things were going to work out. I thought that the “Flowers and parades” plan was just far too optimistic, and I also thought that the people planning the occupation obviously didn’t know and didn’t want to know what they were getting into. So, sectarian strife, abuses on all sides, mass killings, all the fun of the fair.

Now we have in front of us a falling apart state, with a civil war on the go and a heavy dose of radicalism on the side.

The first thing that one needs to do when considering a strategy (as in any project) is “What are we trying to achieve”. Only when that has been explored can one go onto “How can we achieve that”, because otherwise you have no way to measure success or failure, and with no means to measure success or failure you cannot change tactics meaningfully.

Killing people simply isn’t working. Having elections isn’t working. Building up Iraqi security forces isn’t working. It seems that everything that we do makes more Islamic nutcases.

So, “What are we trying to achieve?”

Drongo: You are a gracious man, in the face of an over done, and unprovoked assault!

I’ve took your post, as the opportunity to unload about 3 weeks of backed up bile from reading a combination of about 6 other blogs, where serious people are having serious discussions about the future of our civilization, and our country, and where a bunch of Leftist Trolls, take the oppportunity at every turn, to inject their complete and utter bullshit, and I had just had enough, and I lashed out at you!

Your last comment, the one to start this post, is the most apropos!

Cheers

Dale

Goodness me, you certainly can tell a lot about me from that little bit, can’t you. Unfortunately you are wrong in almost every particular, apart from the military service part. Coming from a military family, I considered the Royal Navy as a career but decided that I wanted a more stable lifestyle in which to raise a family.

“Instead, you know all about “Kwanza”, and the fact that we now have a “Fall Festival” and a “Winter Festival”, because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they’re Anti-American, and thus GOOD!”

Sorry, I have no idea what “Kwanza” is, and celebrate Christmas and Halloween. I’ve never been to a fall festival in my life, nor do I even know what one is.

“Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder!”

OK. Sounds like fun.

“What the Union did, to the population of the South, during the Civil War, and what the Allies did to the Germans and the Japanese, on many SINGLE DAYS, outweighed ANYTHING that has happened in Afghanistan, and Iraq, to all concerned: Miliary and Civilian, COMBINED, over the past FIVE YEARS!”

Yeeees. That’s knid of obvious, isn’t it. But then you’re not fighting a war to conquer, are you. You are fighting a war to liberate, aren’t you?

“Now, your Leftist sensibilities are screaming out at this point: MURDERER, you have no regard for human life, you want people to die, you’re excusing the murder of innocents, and you don’t care about your fellow military etc., etc.!”

No, they aren’t. Sorry to disappoint. My sensibilities are saying “What’s your point?”.

“My wants/desires didn’t keep Al Qaeda from murdering 3000 of my fellow citizens, while they were at their desks, catching up on their emails, or drinking their coffee, or thinking about when they had to leave work to go home to their kid’s soccer game!”

No, that was piss poor intelligence work, wasn’t it.

I am still not really getting your point. What does this have to do with the war in Iraq?

“Hey Drongo, there are BAD people in the world, they don’t think like you and me; life is disposable to them; they could give a shit if you “like” them, and just want to get along, and that you’re culturally sensitive, and want to reach out to them!”

Yes, I know. Do you think that the war in Iraq has increased or decreased to number of people who hate us enough to harm us?

“Drongo, they don’t give a crap! So you can wallow in your self-hate, and self-guilt, and your reflexive Anti-Americanism; that’s fine, they’ll smile in your face, and slit your throat while you’re still wallowing in self-pity and hate for Bush!”

Well, the chance of any of them trying to slit my throat are remarkably low, since I live in the home counties. Not a whole lot of Islamicly driven murders around here. And I tend to wallow in the confort of my life, not in any form of hatred. I must say, though it grieves me to say it, that you seem to have some serious issues with some of your fellow citizens.

“So, we HAD better succeed in Iraq, it’s the “BIG IDEA”; we HAVE NO choice, otherwise, sooner or later, it’s World War, against the Islamic Caliphate, and you Quislings and worshipers of Neville Chamberlain, will be running to people like me, and crying going “why didn’t anyone warn us….”, and hiding behind your skirts, as people like ME, die to protect your sorry asses!”

I still fail to see how the Islamic caliphate is going to invade the UK or the US. What are they going to do? Load up surplus military hardware on a tanker and invade Kent? How are they planning to deal with the obvious threat of nuclear destruction?

“So, to get back to your original point; I don’t CARE whether we can win the Iraqi hearts and minds, RIGHT now; we didn’t try to win the Japanese and German hearts and minds either; SIXTY YEARS AGO, we WON the DAMN WAR First, and their HEARTS and MINDS came after; if you have any doubt, go visit Germany and Japan NOW, and see what WE accomplished over there; NOT THEM; US, the United States enabled them to be the countries they are now, 60years later; and we earned it with the blood of our young men and women; because despite the pain, and suffering, and the deaths of innocents, WE made the WORLD a BETTER PLACE!”

Well, yes, but then you didn’t have to deal with an insurgency as active as this one, did you, powered by religious fanaticism. A war was fought, lots of people died, the countries surrendered and then reconstruction and reintegration proceeded. This is pretty obviously not the war that is going on in Iraq. In Iraq there is no-one to surrender, there is no decisive battle to win, there is no strategic hinges to attack.

It strikes me that the example of WWII is the worst possible one to use as your view of this war. You know perfectly well that steel on target is not going to do the job in CI warfare. It never has and it never will. You’re a marine for goodness sake, of all the US military branches you guys are the innovators, the ones who recognise the situation for what it is not what you want it to be because you are in the thick of it. Above you made that clear.

Your argument about deaths in WWII vs Iraq is like saying that since you used a large explosive charge to demolish a building, a stick of dynamite would be the best way to open your stuck front door.

Killing a million Iraqis is not going to produce an improved situation in Iraq. Killing 10 million or so might do it.

“Thus, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the pain, the suffering, the dead Americans and dead Iraqis and dead Afghanistanis; it IS NECESSARY; we ARE going to make the World, in the LONG RUN, ad better place, we are going to transform a Murderous Ideology; and we HAVE to do, for the sake of US, and THEM, in the long run!”

OK, you are going to make the world a better place. Since, obviously, the current strategy in Iraq is just producing a failed vacuum of a state which will, and does, provide a perfect recruiting and training ground for terrorists, this strategy needs to change. It is just as clear that Islam, as a political force in Iraq is vastly more influential and organised than it was 5 years ago. Presumably you regard this as a bad thing (I know that I do).

The strategy at the moment obviously isn’t working. What should be being done differently that might lead to an improved state. Lets pick “Less Islamic nutcases” as the indicator of success.

guess again, Davebo.

If you read the piece, the important part is toward the bottom, where Mr. Baker says

”
If we are able to promote representative, representative government, not necessarily democracy, in a number of nations in the Middle East and bring more freedom to the people of that part of the world, it will have been a success,” he said.

That distinction is crucial, according to one member of the expert working groups. “Baker wants to believe that Sunni dictators in Sunni majority states are representative,” the group member, who requested anonymity, said.
”

See, he is a “realist”. That is a portion of the Foreign service that believes that “yes, he is a bastard, but he is our bastard”.
Jimmy B has a long and cosy history with the Saudi’s and this Democracy thing is rocking his boat.

If you know history and politics, Davebo, you would know that the far right and the far left actually hold similar positions on many things.
That is why Hitler could be a Socialist. Both the far left and far right believe that dictatorships are more effective than messy democracy.

It’s a complete waste of time, trying talk, rational, logic, sense and commonsense to Leftists!

First, you have NO commonsense, second, your intellecutal capability is severely atrophied, due to decades of inculcation by Leftists, anti-American Academia in America; third, because of your short-sightedness and Leftist proclivities, you avoid like the plauge, service in your country’s military services; you have no practical experience in the world, the military, the government; uusally your only major experience in life is having taken a weekend spring break trip to Cancun, or Aruba, where you spent the majority of the time drunk, high, and/or trying to get on some sex-act video so it could be uploaded to some $14.95/per month pay-porn site.

Your entire raison d’etre, is HATE - Bush, HATE - American; and there is NOTHING, that anyone can say or do, to wipe away the sometimes decades of brainwashing that has been absorbed by your petty minds courtesy of Academia, the Leftists, and the MSM; which your cranial cavity has sopped up like a diabetic in a candy store.

With your Leftist and facile upbringings, and your ludicrous modern educations; you have NO foundation whatsoever in Citizenship, History, Anthropology, Sociology, Military History, Geography, World History, Western Civilization, the Classics, Social Studies, etc.

Instead, you know all about “Kwanza”, and the fact that we now have a “Fall Festival” and a “Winter Festival”, because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they’re Anti-American, and thus GOOD!

Thus, you cannot put ANYTHING into HISTORICAL Context, because you are fundalmentally INCAPABLE, and thus we come Fullcircle, with you askeing the totally INANE question you ask above, which can ONLY be asked, if you have NO idea what you are asking, or why you are asking it, because you are completely operating off of the Leftist meme, that sounds like Homer Simpson (one of your cultural heroes, I’m sure??) on Duff Beer: Bush….BAAAAAADDDD, Iraq WAAAAAAAARRRR BAAAAAAADDDDD!

First, let me state; having actually WORN the uniform of a Marine Officer and Intelligence specialist for a Dozen years, and having served in Iraq, the fist time, I ACTUALLY HAVE some practical Experience, Background, and KNOWLEDGE of that which I speak; UNLIKE 99.99% of the clueless Jacobites I foolishly waste my time trying to educate; I might as well spend my time knocking my head against a brick wall, for all the good it does me, but I’m a patient man, and the future of our Country depends upon me Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder!

So, as a former Marine, and UNLIKE Lefists, who courtesy Hillary Clinton, figured out the “we care for the troops, but we don’t support the war..” meme, back in 2001; which by the way, is a COMPLETE lie; you despise the Military, and everything it has ever done, because it’s very existence is testimony that like all good Lefists, it has enabled you to be what you ARE, today, without you all EVER having had to make a contribution to it at all!, and thus you are driven by guilt and self-hate as a result of your concious decision to avoid Military Service, and thus you all seize upon the “we support the troops” line, hypocrasy and lies coming out of YOUR mouths, to attempt to protect and insulate yourselves against the anti-Patriotic and anti-American labels you so richly deserve; so unlike you, I ACTUALLY DO CARE about the “troops”, because I also have served, and I know what it’s like, and I still have dozens of friends, colleagues, and peers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the past 5 years; and I think about them, and their families, every day, and communicate with them, and worry about them, and grieve for them!

Again, unlike All you LEFTISTS; who proudly tout the latest casualty figures, and number of wounded, and amount of Iraqi citizens killed; NOT BECAUSE you give a DAMN about any of them, but because you’re so blinded by BUSH HATE, you caprisiously and callouslly will use any/all ammunition you can, to undermine and destroy a sitting President, in a time of war, for NO OTHER REASON than because he’s a Republican, he’s a Christian, and because he’s NOT a Democrat and because he’s the Anti-Clinton, and because you HATE him because YOUR IDOL Clinton was IMPEACHED, and is a complete and utterly morally bankrupt fool; which is a reflection back on you, again!

Now, let me put some things in Historical context for you, since you lack the capability to do so yourself!

What the Union did, to the population of the South, during the Civil War, and what the Allies did to the Germans and the Japanese, on many SINGLE DAYS, outweighed ANYTHING that has happened in Afghanistan, and Iraq, to all concerned: Miliary and Civilian, COMBINED, over the past FIVE YEARS!

Do I need to REPEAT that for you?

And in fact, it’s even worse, if you put it further into Historical Context, by stating that the population of the United States for example was exactly HALF of what it is today; and so was the World Population as well; so ANYTHING that happened, per capita-wise, during WWII for example, was exactly, or more, than DOUBLE what the same effect would be today, for the same action!

For example, WHEN ON ONE SINGLE NIGHT, OF BOMBING TOKYO, IN 1944 18 SQUARE MILES OF TOKYO WAS DESTROYED, AND OVER 100,000 JAPANESE CIVILIANS WERE KILLED; Yes, that’s right on ONE NIGHT, 100,000 CIVILIAN DEAD, in ONE City, on ONE Night!; that would be the equivalent of 200,000+ dead today!, IN ONE NIGHT!

American dead, total out of WWII; in Four years of Combat: ~495,000; basically ONE MILLION equivalent Military dead, per capita, today; that’s just the dead, doesn’t include the wounded, the civilians, etc.

So far, in Iraq & Afghanistan, in five years; we’ve lost ~3000 dead; the equivalent of ~1500 in WWII!, TOTAL!

Do you know what the casualty figures were per WEEK in WWII, for American military: 5000! PER WEEK!

I can do the same for the Civilians; even the most ludicrous of Leftists estimates (and NOT the complete BS that came out last week); put Iraqi-Afghanistan civilian casualties over the past five years at between 50,000 - 150,000; when you factor in the demographics I mentioned, that’s 25,000 - 75,000 in WWII terms, TOTAL in FIVE YEARS!

That’s not even equivalent to ONE NIGHT bombing into Dresden and Tokyo!

Hell, Winston Churchill, to PROTECT his equivalent of the NSA listening Program, “allowed” the Luftwaffe to bomb the English city of Coventry, and 10,000 of his FELLOW citizens died that night!, alone!

Now, your Leftist sensibilities are screaming out at this point: MURDERER, you have no regard for human life, you want people to die, you’re excusing the murder of innocents, and you don’t care about your fellow military etc., etc.!

CRAP! I’ve already Debunked that bullcrap, which you’ll try to pull anyway; I have a HIGHER regard for ANY/ALL life than you’ll EVER have, because I’ve been in the position where my own, and the lives of others were VERY PRECIOUS to me; that is why I care, and I grieve, whereas for you all, it’s the ends to a political means, and you have absolutely have NO shame about exploiting it as such!

Any asshole can take a life; preserving one is the real challenge!

But I’m also a REALIST; my wants and desires don’t mean squat in the world, my wants and desires and care for human life, didn’t keep the Japanese from bombing Pearl Harbor, unsolicited, and murdering 1400 fellow American military men/women in their bunks, while most of them slept!

My wants/desires didn’t keep Al Qaeda from murdering 3000 of my fellow citizens, while they were at their desks, catching up on their emails, or drinking their coffee, or thinking about when they had to leave work to go home to their kid’s soccer game!

And my want’s and desires, are NOT going to keep the same assholes, from setting off a suitcase nuke in downtown Manhattan, as SOON as they get a chance, and murdering 2 MILLION more of my fellow citizens!

Hey Drongo, there are BAD people in the world, they don’t think like you and me; life is disposable to them; they could give a shit if you “like” them, and just want to get along, and that you’re culturally sensitive, and want to reach out to them!

They’re like that, because they ARE; not because Bush is a bad person, or American is a bad country, or becuase we’ve ever done anything to them; they’re like that because their Religion tells them to be like that, and tells them it’s okay; and tells them that by murdering us, they’ll go to heaven, and they’ll get 72 virgins and 24 prebubescent boys to ravish (check out “Ghilman’s in the “Wiki” if you don’t believe me)!

Drongo, they don’t give a crap! So you can wallow in your self-hate, and self-guilt, and your reflexive Anti-Americanism; that’s fine, they’ll smile in your face, and slit your throat while you’re still wallowing in self-pity and hate for Bush!

ME; I’m not giving them the chance!

So, we HAD better succeed in Iraq, it’s the “BIG IDEA”; we HAVE NO choice, otherwise, sooner or later, it’s World War, against the Islamic Caliphate, and you Quislings and worshipers of Neville Chamberlain, will be running to people like me, and crying going “why didn’t anyone warn us….”, and hiding behind your skirts, as people like ME, die to protect your sorry asses!

So, to get back to your original point; I don’t CARE whether we can win the Iraqi hearts and minds, RIGHT now; we didn’t try to win the Japanese and German hearts and minds either; SIXTY YEARS AGO, we WON the DAMN WAR First, and their HEARTS and MINDS came after; if you have any doubt, go visit Germany and Japan NOW, and see what WE accomplished over there; NOT THEM; US, the United States enabled them to be the countries they are now, 60years later; and we earned it with the blood of our young men and women; because despite the pain, and suffering, and the deaths of innocents, WE made the WORLD a BETTER PLACE!

That’s a FACT, and it’s also a FACT that bothers LEFTISTS as well, so they just ignore it!

Thus, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the pain, the suffering, the dead Americans and dead Iraqis and dead Afghanistanis; it IS NECESSARY; we ARE going to make the World, in the LONG RUN, ad better place, we are going to transform a Murderous Ideology; and we HAVE to do, for the sake of US, and THEM, in the long run!

And if you don’t understand that, there is NO hope for you, or your fellow anti-American Jacobites!