Comments on: PLANS FOR IRAQ OFFENSIVE CO-OPTS THE ISG http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/ Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto. Wed, 29 Apr 2026 10:18:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Nick D. http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-406863 Nick D. Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:36:14 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-406863 "Too little. Too late... a noble undertaking, botched from the start, incompetently prosecuted, and in the end, a failure." And again, too soon to draw that ["Myth of Incompetence"] conclusion Rick. AJ Strata writes: "[T]he Iraqis and the US military, the ones there day in and day out, are not sending signals all is lost. In fact just the opposite.[...] "... the zone of violence in Iraq is shrinking (much of the country is already under Iraqi control), and those remaining zones are being flooded with resources and being worked with Iraqis to ferret out the insurgents." http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/2976 “Too little. Too late… a noble undertaking, botched from the start, incompetently prosecuted, and in the end, a failure.”

And again, too soon to draw that ["Myth of Incompetence"] conclusion Rick.

AJ Strata writes:

“[T]he Iraqis and the US military, the ones there day in and day out, are not sending signals all is lost. In fact just the opposite.[...]

“… the zone of violence in Iraq is shrinking (much of the country is already under Iraqi control), and those remaining zones are being flooded with resources and being worked with Iraqis to ferret out the insurgents.”

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/2976

]]> By: Woody Y http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-404326 Woody Y Sun, 19 Nov 2006 00:48:48 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-404326 Bush’s statements, yesterday concerning what he had learned from the Vietnam war left me spluttering and thinking about the nature of ‘Folly’.. First, I would like to recommend a great book by the great American historian Barbara Tuchman, ‘The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam’. In this book Tuchman sets out what constitutes true Folly as committed by a nation, using the fall of Troy in the Homer’s Iliad as example. She saw Folly as having four components: 1) The act must be one of choice , something not closely bound to the national interest. In her first example, the Trojans had no pressing need to bring that big wooden horse inside the gates of the city. 2) The nation must have been clearly warned against this action. In the example, Cassandra’s warning, ”Beware of Greeks bearing gifts” falls on deaf ears. 3) The act must be done without thought of any of it’s consequences. In the example, ‘Why would you want a big Greek horse inside the walls of your city, in the first place”? 4) Having committed the act, a nation must do something to make the possible negative consequences much worse. In the example, after bringing the Trojan horse inside the gates the army of Troy sets out to get dead drunk. In her book Tuchman sets out about half a dozen historical examples of true national ‘Folly’ ending with Vietnam. There is no clearer textbook example Folly in recent history than Iraq. That it was a war of choice and that all warnings against it were ignored is obvious, as is the lack of any consideration of consequences .The disbanding of the Iraqi army and ‘debaathification of the civil government are strong contenders for point #4 but there are of course others…. The Greeks had a word for the real lesson of all this, ‘Hubris’. Arrogant leaders never learn from their mistakes and nations that willfully believe they will, whether in Nixon’s ‘Secret Plan for Peace in Vietnam’, or Bush’s ‘New Course in Iraq’ are bound for tragedy. Bush’s statements, yesterday concerning what he had learned from the Vietnam war left me spluttering and thinking about the nature of ‘Folly’.. First, I would like to recommend a great book by
the great American historian Barbara Tuchman, ‘The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam’. In this book Tuchman sets out what constitutes true Folly as committed by a nation, using the fall of Troy in the Homer’s Iliad as example. She saw Folly as having four components:
1) The act must be one of choice , something not closely bound to the national interest. In her first example, the Trojans had no pressing need to bring that big wooden horse inside the gates of the city.
2) The nation must have been clearly warned against this action.
In the example, Cassandra’s warning, ”Beware of Greeks bearing gifts” falls on deaf ears.
3) The act must be done without thought of any of it’s consequences. In the example, ‘Why would you want a big Greek horse inside the walls of your city, in the first place”?
4) Having committed the act, a nation must do something to make the possible negative consequences much worse. In the example, after bringing the Trojan horse inside the gates the army of Troy sets out to get dead drunk.

In her book Tuchman sets out about half a dozen historical examples of true national ‘Folly’ ending with Vietnam. There is no clearer textbook example Folly in recent history than Iraq. That it was a war of choice and that all warnings against it were ignored is obvious, as is the lack of any consideration of consequences .The disbanding of the Iraqi army and ‘debaathification of the civil government are strong contenders for point #4 but there are of course others….

The Greeks had a word for the real lesson of all this, ‘Hubris’. Arrogant leaders never learn from their mistakes and nations that willfully believe they will, whether in Nixon’s ‘Secret Plan for Peace in Vietnam’, or Bush’s ‘New Course in Iraq’ are bound for tragedy.

]]> By: SteveAudio http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-402276 SteveAudio Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:44:46 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-402276 Rick: Sadly, there was nothing noble about taking out our former ally Saddam, in that it had exactly nothing to do with the true global war on terror in re: Al-Qaeda. Many smart folks, including Bush 41, knew this was the likely outcome. This isn't spilt milk, to be wiped up. This is like pulling out a shotgun, blasting someone in half, and then saying: "What do I do now?" This booboo can't be kissed all better, no matter how hard we clap. Oh, and Osama got his wish: we pulled out of Saudi Arabia, home to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabbi" rel="nofollow">Wahhabi Islamists</a>. Rick:

Sadly, there was nothing noble about taking out our former ally Saddam, in that it had exactly nothing to do with the true global war on terror in re: Al-Qaeda.

Many smart folks, including Bush 41, knew this was the likely outcome.

This isn’t spilt milk, to be wiped up.

This is like pulling out a shotgun, blasting someone in half, and then saying: “What do I do now?” This booboo can’t be kissed all better, no matter how hard we clap.

Oh, and Osama got his wish: we pulled out of Saudi Arabia, home to the Wahhabi Islamists.

]]> By: Hot Air » Blog Archive » Calling all military: Critique this Iraq plan http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-402049 Hot Air » Blog Archive » Calling all military: Critique this Iraq plan Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:56:17 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-402049 [...] Update: Moran hit it on the head this morning, so I’m obliged to quote: National polity has been shattered. It is doubtful whether even the 50,000 troops recommended by many observers – including Senator McCain – could restore any semblance of peace and security in the 4-6 months that General Abizaid says we have before the situation becomes irreversible. Unless we are willing to stay for 5-10 years with this level of commitment and expenditure of blood and treasure, I can’t see how the faith of the Iraqi people in government, in law and order, in civil society can be re-established. [...] [...] Update: Moran hit it on the head this morning, so I’m obliged to quote: National polity has been shattered. It is doubtful whether even the 50,000 troops recommended by many observers – including Senator McCain – could restore any semblance of peace and security in the 4-6 months that General Abizaid says we have before the situation becomes irreversible. Unless we are willing to stay for 5-10 years with this level of commitment and expenditure of blood and treasure, I can’t see how the faith of the Iraqi people in government, in law and order, in civil society can be re-established. [...]

]]> By: Johnny Tremaine http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401803 Johnny Tremaine Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:00:19 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401803 I agree more with Bill Kristol at The Weekly Standard. His new editorial on their site calls for an increase of at least 50,000 more troops. Kristol basically says, 'send in 50,000 to pacify the violence or don't even bother at all'. I agree more with Bill Kristol at The Weekly Standard. His new editorial on their site calls for an increase of at least 50,000 more troops. Kristol basically says, ’send in 50,000 to pacify the violence or don’t even bother at all’.

]]> By: Wake up America http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401435 Wake up America Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:09:34 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401435 <strong>Congressional Casualties via the Military</strong> If they do not listen to the Generals and the people ON THE GROUND in Iraq, then once again, they are doing the exact same thing they "claimed" the president was doing before the elections. Rock meet hard place. One has to wonder if Hillary has any ... Congressional Casualties via the Military

If they do not listen to the Generals and the people ON THE GROUND in Iraq, then once again, they are doing the exact same thing they “claimed” the president was doing before the elections. Rock meet hard place.
One has to wonder if Hillary has any …

]]> By: Drongo http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401418 Drongo Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:01:01 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401418 "Too little. Too late." Much, much too late, I wholeheartedly agree. I find myself thinking "Maybe noble, maybe malicious, but certainly hopeless" with regard to the whole invasion. Unfortunately, I almost guarantee that this won't be the last "Big push". “Too little. Too late.”

Much, much too late, I wholeheartedly agree.

I find myself thinking “Maybe noble, maybe malicious, but certainly hopeless” with regard to the whole invasion.

Unfortunately, I almost guarantee that this won’t be the last “Big push”.

]]> By: Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401383 Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:45:44 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401383 <strong>Bush meets with panel on Iraq, but not on policy</strong> The bipartisan Iraq Study Group spent Monday at the White House meeting with President Bush and his Bush meets with panel on Iraq, but not on policy

The bipartisan Iraq Study Group spent Monday at the White House meeting with President Bush and his

]]> By: Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » Drawing That Line In The Sand http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401306 Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » Drawing That Line In The Sand Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:46:06 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401306 [...] Of course we get all the shrill cries from the left about it not working, and even cries from the defeatist conservatives such as Rick Moran at Rightwing Nuthouse, Tom Moran at JustOneMinute, and the always pessimistic Allah at Hot Air. I shake my head in wonder at these people and wonder what they would have written about in 1943 and 1944. “It’s all doomed”, “they all screwed it up”, “I knew better then everyone else”. [...] [...] Of course we get all the shrill cries from the left about it not working, and even cries from the defeatist conservatives such as Rick Moran at Rightwing Nuthouse, Tom Moran at JustOneMinute, and the always pessimistic Allah at Hot Air. I shake my head in wonder at these people and wonder what they would have written about in 1943 and 1944. “It’s all doomed”, “they all screwed it up”, “I knew better then everyone else”. [...]

]]> By: The Anchoress » No, really, I can’t blog today… http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/comment-page-1/#comment-401300 The Anchoress » No, really, I can’t blog today… Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:42:18 +0000 http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/11/16/plans-for-iraq-offensive-co-opts-the-isg/#comment-401300 [...] I dunnnnnoooooo…I don’t think you can win a war with an expedient maneuver, particularly if the effort is understood to be followed by withdrawal. Anything can be waited out. Rick Moran says Bush is trying to get the single-minded “pull-out” Democrats and the ISG to think strategy for Victory, here. Gaius says Bush Dumb Like Fox. Meanwhile… [...] [...] I dunnnnnoooooo…I don’t think you can win a war with an expedient maneuver, particularly if the effort is understood to be followed by withdrawal. Anything can be waited out. Rick Moran says Bush is trying to get the single-minded “pull-out” Democrats and the ISG to think strategy for Victory, here. Gaius says Bush Dumb Like Fox. Meanwhile… [...]

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