I do.

“Well I maintain the war was won when we deposed Saddam’s regime and won in spectacular fashion.”

Fair enough. I agree. Can we go home now?

“For instance, some would say even America isn’t at peace.”

Forgive me but I think that the comparison is simply obscene.

“The left and the liberal media have on no less than seven different occasion in the last three years declared civil war yet there is no nation-wide war being fought on any ideo-political grounds. What we’re seeing in Iraq is both home-grown and foreign jihadists continuing their war against the forces of democracy in Iraq. It has in a very real way become another front on the war on terror. That is where the enemies of liberty have chosen to fight and fight them we must.”

Oh for goodness sake. Most of the fighting in Iraq is about nationalism, collaboration, resistance to occupation, corruption or general thievery and power grabbing. Overlaid on that are the insane murderous urges of a bunch of 7th century idiots with modern weapons.

“BTW, do you believe, as did the American Founders, “that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God”?”

No, I am an atheist. As were at least some of your founders I believe.

I also do not believe that rights come from the generosity of the state. I think that the powers of the state come from the consent of the governed and that the limits to those powers are the limits that the people define.

“If not then we’re not even on the same page when it comes to the rights of man and the obligations we Americans have to destroy the chains of slavery when it is within our power to do so to the mutual benefit of many peoples and nations.”

Messianic missions make poor strategic decisions inevitable. Still, it is a noble enterprise.

On the subject of democracy, freedom and self determination, how do you feel about the Iraqi parliament’s recent vote in favour of US withdrawl?

A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention….

So we now get some results. Pork. Legislation tied up between houses for ethics reform. More pork. Letting lobbyist ‘personal friends’ jet Congresscritters around for free. Even more pork. Funneling money to spouses who own companies. Lots more pork. Shady land deals with gangsters. Look, more pork! Acting like Neville Chamberlain and visiting tyrants and despots. Say, did I mention pork? Looking to get legislation to favor industries that a spouse is part of. Cartloads of pork. Not bothering to read their job description. Truckloads of pork. Visiting with terrorists associated with some of the worst organizations on the planet. A veritable porkfest.

An anti-corruption platform should be dead simple to implement. Very easy. It addresses member behavior and following that up with very simple rules to abide by.

If the Democrats can’t do *that* simple thing, then why should they be trusted on anything slightly more complex… say, getting the Dept. of Agriculture bill through without adding heaping helpings of pork? They aren’t trusted until they show that they know how to control themselves. They came in claiming to not be as bad as the other side.

They are correct.

They are worse.

Interesting you bring this up since I’ve used the quote numerous times myself to describe liberals who live by the polls and sometimes shape their lives by the polls. It’s interesting you didn’t apply it to those on your side of the aisle who throw out polling data which at best is just a snapshot of people’s perception of what happens to be the opinion du jour. Conservatives are typically adverse to public opinion polling data, except to point out the contradictory results … like I did.

Drongo, you make my point, polls end up being push polls and I find myself having to answer in such a way that undercuts my more nuanced understanding of a complex issue. That’s why polls in general are useless.

Liberal Democrats have been saying the war is “lost”. Well I maintain the war was won when we deposed Saddam’s regime and won in spectacular fashion. What hasn’t been won is the “peace” and therein lies the fly in the ointment because people have different view of what “peace” is. For instance, some would say even America isn’t at peace. Just look at the violence in our own culture, but in this case it’s not violence due to religious sectarianism. And I would argue that Iraq isn’t engaged in a civil war but rather a more narrow Islamic sectarian violence. The left and the liberal media have on no less than seven different occasion in the last three years declared civil war yet there is no nation-wide war being fought on any ideo-political grounds. What we’re seeing in Iraq is both home-grown and foreign jihadists continuing their war against the forces of democracy in Iraq. It has in a very real way become another front on the war on terror. That is where the enemies of liberty have chosen to fight and fight them we must.

And when you read President Jack Kennedy’s (John Kennedy to you) inaugural address I can just see the gears turning in your head as you will probably engage in shallow rationalizations in hopes of gutting the very meaning of what this great American was conveying to a world burden by the chains of tyranny and despotism:

The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

This much we pledge—and more.

BTW, do you believe, as did the American Founders, “that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God”? If not then we’re not even on the same page when it comes to the rights of man and the obligations we Americans have to destroy the chains of slavery when it is within our power to do so to the mutual benefit of many peoples and nations.

Hell, I don’t want a premature withdrawl from Iraq, and I was a clear victory for peace and democracy.

That means that I am in agreement with the clear majority of Americans. And yet I advocate immediate withdrawl from Iraq. These positions are consistent as I consider that time is long past to start withdrawing (so it is not premature) and I don’t think that there will ever be a clear victory in Iraq, much as I might want one.

So much for that poll’s results meaning much.

I’m increasingly coming to consider any and all polls worthless. I do feel the urge to quote Churchill here though, just because it is a great quote (and beats the “Lies, Damned lies and Statistics” one”);

“He uses statistics as a drunk uses lamposts. For support rather than illumination.”

The Moriah Group poll reveals a clear majority of Americans DO NOT want a premature withdrawal and in fact want to have a clear victory in Iraq.

The The Investors Business Daily poll reflects essentially the same attitude among the majority of Americans.

And there shall our warriors rejoice at the sight as the Dhimmicrats parade by in chains on the way to their eternal reward.

I added an excerpt and link to my 2007.05.09 Dem Perfidy // Islamism Delenda Est Roundup

Come on, this is silly.

Gallup poll:
“Do you favor or oppose the U.S. war in Iraq?”

Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %

5/4-6/07 34 65 1

4/10-12/07 32 66 2

3/9-11/07 32 63 4

1/11/07 31 67 2

12/15-17/06 31 67 2

That’s not any fringe, that the majority, not plurality, but majority, of the country.