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	<title>Comments on: WHOSE FREEDOM? WHAT IS SPEECH?</title>
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	<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/</link>
	<description>Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2020 22:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: car insurance low</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1326640</link>
		<dc:creator>car insurance low</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-1326640</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;car insurance low...&lt;/strong&gt;

inspires Bolshevist buster,arrival recasts ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>car insurance low&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>inspires Bolshevist buster,arrival recasts &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: winston07</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-842356</link>
		<dc:creator>winston07</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-842356</guid>
		<description>The prosecuting authority here is acting in accordance with the spirit of 'hate crime' legislation, which is the appeasement of Islamist cultural and physical aggression. The hate crime legislation has the intended effect of criminalising criticism of Islamic theology, with unintended side effect of allowing Islamist recruitment to flourish.

The reason that the 'hate crime' legislation is not applied even handedly to those who insult other religions, is that society at large is not, frankly, terribly afraid of other religious groups. People are, however, afraid of Islamists. Rightly so. 

The logic of appeasement runs thus: if we do everything possible, including presumably the restriction of basic freedoms, to prevent anyone from offending Islamists, maybe they'll stop trying to blow us up; meanwhile if a few Christians should get upset about pictures of their God Incarnate in some stale urine, well at least they won't kill anyone...and maybe, by tacitly sanctioning the desecration of a very potent symbol of western culture, the Islamists will be satisfied that we're really trying to empathise with their concerns and issues.... 

Mr Shmulevich should not be prosecuted for placing a book in a lavatory. The man responsible for 'Piss Christ' should not be prosecuted either. Nor should I, for saying that Mr Shmulevich has behaved with rudeness and stupidity, and that Mr 'Piss Christ' is a moron, whose work is vacuous, boring and entirely devoid of merit.

All are well within the bounds of acceptable free speech.

The much more important point is that in passing the hate crime legislation, both your society in the US and mine in the UK, are showing the Islamist that we are terrified of them, physically, culturally and electorally, and that we do not in fact value our freedom. Since their philosophy depends upon the assumption that we can in fact be coerced into abandoning liberty and democracy, in favour of religious submission and theocracy, this kind of legislation can only encourage them.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ...
Benjamin Franklin

The posture of appeasement serves only to encourage derision and violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The prosecuting authority here is acting in accordance with the spirit of &#8216;hate crime&#8217; legislation, which is the appeasement of Islamist cultural and physical aggression. The hate crime legislation has the intended effect of criminalising criticism of Islamic theology, with unintended side effect of allowing Islamist recruitment to flourish.</p>
<p>The reason that the &#8216;hate crime&#8217; legislation is not applied even handedly to those who insult other religions, is that society at large is not, frankly, terribly afraid of other religious groups. People are, however, afraid of Islamists. Rightly so. </p>
<p>The logic of appeasement runs thus: if we do everything possible, including presumably the restriction of basic freedoms, to prevent anyone from offending Islamists, maybe they&#8217;ll stop trying to blow us up; meanwhile if a few Christians should get upset about pictures of their God Incarnate in some stale urine, well at least they won&#8217;t kill anyone&#8230;and maybe, by tacitly sanctioning the desecration of a very potent symbol of western culture, the Islamists will be satisfied that we&#8217;re really trying to empathise with their concerns and issues&#8230;. </p>
<p>Mr Shmulevich should not be prosecuted for placing a book in a lavatory. The man responsible for &#8216;Piss Christ&#8217; should not be prosecuted either. Nor should I, for saying that Mr Shmulevich has behaved with rudeness and stupidity, and that Mr &#8216;Piss Christ&#8217; is a moron, whose work is vacuous, boring and entirely devoid of merit.</p>
<p>All are well within the bounds of acceptable free speech.</p>
<p>The much more important point is that in passing the hate crime legislation, both your society in the US and mine in the UK, are showing the Islamist that we are terrified of them, physically, culturally and electorally, and that we do not in fact value our freedom. Since their philosophy depends upon the assumption that we can in fact be coerced into abandoning liberty and democracy, in favour of religious submission and theocracy, this kind of legislation can only encourage them.</p>
<p>&#8220;They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. &#8230;<br />
Benjamin Franklin</p>
<p>The posture of appeasement serves only to encourage derision and violence.</p>
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		<title>By: Rhymes With Right</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-837941</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhymes With Right</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 00:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-837941</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Watcher's Council Results...&lt;/strong&gt;

The winning entries in the Watcher's Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &#38; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and Baghdad Raid Night by Michael J.&#160;Totten.&#160; Here are the full tallies of....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Watcher&#8217;s Council Results&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>The winning entries in the Watcher&#8217;s Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &amp; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and Baghdad Raid Night by Michael J.&nbsp;Totten.&nbsp; Here are the full tallies of&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Big Lizards</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-836028</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Lizards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-836028</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Spinners and Winners...&lt;/strong&gt;

Another complete breakdown of the Big Lizards machine; but this time we have an excuse -- a massive disk-drive failure that required replacement and which interfered with the smoothly oiled functioning of the reptilian automaton. We were unable to send...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Spinners and Winners&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Another complete breakdown of the Big Lizards machine; but this time we have an excuse &#8212; a massive disk-drive failure that required replacement and which interfered with the smoothly oiled functioning of the reptilian automaton. We were unable to send&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: DeputyHeadmistress</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-833963</link>
		<dc:creator>DeputyHeadmistress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-833963</guid>
		<description>I agree with Rick.  I don't think this guy should be charged with a 'hate crime.'  But then, I think hate crimes are for the thought police, not a free society.

I don't agree so much with several commentors. A custody case over a minor child is hardly in the same category as free speech issues involving adults.

Rachel may well have gotten a raw deal, but we're relying on her testimony and that of her friends to make that judgment- and by their nature, custody issues are loaded with emotional baggage (they can't help but be, it's our KIDS we are talking about).
I'm also not impressed with her decision to publicize her kid's name and situation on the internet, but oh, well.

I remember seeing another custody case over religion years ago- Donohue or Oprah.  One parent Catholic, one Jewish, they divorced, and one parent wanted the other one not to be allowed to discuss their religion with or in front of the child, and the judge did rule in favor of that request.  I forget why, and it may or may not have been a stupid ruling- but the point is you don't really have freedom of speech with minor children in custody cases. Like it or not, it's a hairier situation.  My friend may be free to say what she likes about her ex husband's soul to me, but a judge can rule that she can't say those things to her kids.    So this isn't the same thing at all as an adult student in a public university surrounded by other adults putting a book in the toilet.

As for the difference between the Koran and other religions and the treatment of their icons- poppycock. The Catholics view the Eucharist as something every bit as holy (holier even) as the Koran, yet there was a sit com episode (Committed) all around misusing it- it was very offensive to Catholics (and I'm not one).  The Anchoress &lt;a href="http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/02/25/the-holy-eucharist-is-not-sitcom-fodder/" rel="nofollow"&gt; blogged about it&lt;/a&gt;.  People objected, but nobody took them to court.   They are not charged with a hate crime, even though you know it wasn't love for their Catholic acquaintances that prompted such a story line.

I also don't agree that it's oppressive for Muslim cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol.  They are not imposing their morality on non muslims because you don't have to take their cab.  You can walk, take a bus, take a subway, get your own car, or dump the booze if you like. Those who insist that a Muslim transport them in violation of his conscience are the ones  imposing their morality on others.    But then I believe in freedom of association as well as freedom to do business with whom you want (or not do business with whom you don't want).  

I'm not interested in living in Dhimmitude, but that doesn't mean I want to dhimmify Muslims, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Rick.  I don&#8217;t think this guy should be charged with a &#8216;hate crime.&#8217;  But then, I think hate crimes are for the thought police, not a free society.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree so much with several commentors. A custody case over a minor child is hardly in the same category as free speech issues involving adults.</p>
<p>Rachel may well have gotten a raw deal, but we&#8217;re relying on her testimony and that of her friends to make that judgment- and by their nature, custody issues are loaded with emotional baggage (they can&#8217;t help but be, it&#8217;s our KIDS we are talking about).<br />
I&#8217;m also not impressed with her decision to publicize her kid&#8217;s name and situation on the internet, but oh, well.</p>
<p>I remember seeing another custody case over religion years ago- Donohue or Oprah.  One parent Catholic, one Jewish, they divorced, and one parent wanted the other one not to be allowed to discuss their religion with or in front of the child, and the judge did rule in favor of that request.  I forget why, and it may or may not have been a stupid ruling- but the point is you don&#8217;t really have freedom of speech with minor children in custody cases. Like it or not, it&#8217;s a hairier situation.  My friend may be free to say what she likes about her ex husband&#8217;s soul to me, but a judge can rule that she can&#8217;t say those things to her kids.    So this isn&#8217;t the same thing at all as an adult student in a public university surrounded by other adults putting a book in the toilet.</p>
<p>As for the difference between the Koran and other religions and the treatment of their icons- poppycock. The Catholics view the Eucharist as something every bit as holy (holier even) as the Koran, yet there was a sit com episode (Committed) all around misusing it- it was very offensive to Catholics (and I&#8217;m not one).  The Anchoress <a href="http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/02/25/the-holy-eucharist-is-not-sitcom-fodder/" rel="nofollow"> blogged about it</a>.  People objected, but nobody took them to court.   They are not charged with a hate crime, even though you know it wasn&#8217;t love for their Catholic acquaintances that prompted such a story line.</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t agree that it&#8217;s oppressive for Muslim cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol.  They are not imposing their morality on non muslims because you don&#8217;t have to take their cab.  You can walk, take a bus, take a subway, get your own car, or dump the booze if you like. Those who insist that a Muslim transport them in violation of his conscience are the ones  imposing their morality on others.    But then I believe in freedom of association as well as freedom to do business with whom you want (or not do business with whom you don&#8217;t want).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not interested in living in Dhimmitude, but that doesn&#8217;t mean I want to dhimmify Muslims, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Watergate</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-831062</link>
		<dc:creator>Watergate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 01:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-831062</guid>
		<description>"Mishandling the Koran (or allowing it to be mishandled) is considered a SIN, not just bad conduct. Iâ€™m not Muslim, and I donâ€™t believe it is a sin, but the rules of the faith damn the follower for the transgression."

This is the core of the Muslim oppression:  what is a sin for THEM to do becomes prohibited for non-Muslims to do.  If it is a sin to mishandle the Koran, it is a sin ONLY FOR MUSLIMS.  No one forced a Muslim to mishandle the Koran.  The quote is instructive: "damn the follower" -- it correctly doesn't say "damn the observer."  This is a crucial difference.

This is why it is oppressive for Muslim cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol -- it is imposing their morality on non-Muslims.

That is the essence of Muslim history - imposing Sharia law on non-believers, by force if necessary.  Using our (pathetic and misguided) hate speech/action laws to enforce Sharia law must be resisted at all costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mishandling the Koran (or allowing it to be mishandled) is considered a SIN, not just bad conduct. Iâ€™m not Muslim, and I donâ€™t believe it is a sin, but the rules of the faith damn the follower for the transgression.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is the core of the Muslim oppression:  what is a sin for THEM to do becomes prohibited for non-Muslims to do.  If it is a sin to mishandle the Koran, it is a sin ONLY FOR MUSLIMS.  No one forced a Muslim to mishandle the Koran.  The quote is instructive: &#8220;damn the follower&#8221; &#8212; it correctly doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;damn the observer.&#8221;  This is a crucial difference.</p>
<p>This is why it is oppressive for Muslim cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol &#8212; it is imposing their morality on non-Muslims.</p>
<p>That is the essence of Muslim history - imposing Sharia law on non-believers, by force if necessary.  Using our (pathetic and misguided) hate speech/action laws to enforce Sharia law must be resisted at all costs.</p>
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		<title>By: It happened at the Watcher&#8217;s Council &#171; Bookworm Room</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-830125</link>
		<dc:creator>It happened at the Watcher&#8217;s Council &#171; Bookworm Room</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-830125</guid>
		<description>[...] It happened at the Watcher&#8217;s&#160;Council The votes are in and they are good. My post, &#8220;He&#8217;s not my President,&#8221; placed a respectable third, deserved falling behind the first place winner, NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &#38; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and the second place winner, Whose Freedom? What Is Speech?, by Right Wing Nut House. Congratulations to both these bloggers for a job well done.Â  Heck, congratulations to all the Council members for the other equally good posts.Â  I find the weekly vote very challenging&#8230;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It happened at the Watcher&#8217;s&nbsp;Council The votes are in and they are good. My post, &#8220;He&#8217;s not my President,&#8221; placed a respectable third, deserved falling behind the first place winner, NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &amp; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and the second place winner, Whose Freedom? What Is Speech?, by Right Wing Nut House. Congratulations to both these bloggers for a job well done.Â  Heck, congratulations to all the Council members for the other equally good posts.Â  I find the weekly vote very challenging&#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Colossus of Rhodey</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-829936</link>
		<dc:creator>The Colossus of Rhodey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-829936</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Watcher's Council results...&lt;/strong&gt;

I finally nailed down a first place showing! And now...&#160; the winning entries in the Watcher's Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &#38; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and Baghdad Raid......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Watcher&#8217;s Council results&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I finally nailed down a first place showing! And now&#8230;&nbsp; the winning entries in the Watcher&#8217;s Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &amp; Schooling by The Colossus of Rhodey, and Baghdad Raid&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Soccer Dad</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-829449</link>
		<dc:creator>Soccer Dad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-829449</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Council speak 08/03/07...&lt;/strong&gt;

The council has spoken and declared that Colossus of Rhodey's excellent NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &#38; Schooling was the best Watcher' Council post of the week. It has also voted Michael J. Totten's Baghdad Raid Night the b...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Council speak 08/03/07&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>The council has spoken and declared that Colossus of Rhodey&#8217;s excellent NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Decision Regarding Race &amp; Schooling was the best Watcher&#8217; Council post of the week. It has also voted Michael J. Totten&#8217;s Baghdad Raid Night the b&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher of Weasels</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-829131</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher of Weasels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2007/07/30/whose-freedom-what-is-speech/#comment-829131</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Council Has Spoken!...&lt;/strong&gt;

First off...&#160; any spambots reading this should immediately go here, here, here,&#160; and here.&#160; Die spambots, die!&#160; And now...&#160; the winning entries in the Watcher's Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Dec...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Council Has Spoken!&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>First off&#8230;&nbsp; any spambots reading this should immediately go here, here, here,&nbsp; and here.&nbsp; Die spambots, die!&nbsp; And now&#8230;&nbsp; the winning entries in the Watcher&#8217;s Council vote for this week are NEA Also Confused About SCOTUS Dec&#8230;</p>
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