There are some issues that you just don’t write about if you’re a conservative blogger looking to maintain or build your site. And one of those issues is torture and this administration’s blatant violation of the law in approving interrogation techniques that are universally recognized (outside of the right in America) as illegal.
I say universally recognized because the “enhanced” techniques that were apparently a topic of conversation many times by Bush Administration aides are clear violations of the UN treaty against torture (as amended) and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I won’t mention the Geneva Convention which may or may not apply as a governing instrument in this case.
But we needn’t worry. Those interrogation techniques violated US law as well – war or no war – and only by stretching the executive powers of the president farther than they have ever gone – beyond Lincoln, beyond Wilson, beyond Roosevelt – could even a fig leaf of legality be placed over this gigantic open wound that will continue to fester until we resolve to purge those who brought this evil upon us.
Bill Clinton may have sold the Lincoln bedroom for campaign contributions and used the White House for his carnal romps. But I don’t think that grand structure ever bore witness to the kinds of discussions held by Bush Administration aides as they coldly weighed the options of using various torture techniques on al-Qaeda suspects in our custody:
ABC reported that the so-called “principals” discussed interrogation details in dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House.Then national security adviser Condoleezza Rice chaired the meetings, which took place in the White House Situation Room and were typically attended by a select group of senior officials or their deputies, ABC said.
“Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects—whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding,” ABC reported.
In addition to Rice, the principals at the time included Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft, the report said.
Ashcroft, in an Albert Speers-like moment of moral clarity, knew perfectly well what future generations would think of those involved in these discussions:
Citing sources, ABC said Ashcroft agreed with the policy decision to allow aggressive interrogation tactics and advised that they were legal but was troubled by the discussions.Ashcroft argued that senior White House advisers should not be involved in the grim details of interrogations, sources were cited as saying.
ABC cited a top official as saying that Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: “Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly.”
Marc Ambinder ponders the unthinkable. He titles his post “War Crimes:”
A provocative headline, I know, perhaps needlessly so, but it remains one of those hidden secrets in Washington that a Democratic Justice Department is going to be very interested in figuring out whether there’s a case to be made that senior Bush Administration officials were guilty of war crimes. Stories like these from ABC News—Top Bush Advisors Approved ‘Enhanced Interrogation’—will be as relevant a year from now as they are right now, perhaps even more so.
Michael Goldfarb sees only the politics of the issue:
I’d love to know who’s whispering that in Ambinder’s ear. If this is a secret among Democrats, it certainly is well kept…I’ve never heard a conservative seriously entertain the possibility. But if that’s the plan for an Obama administration, let the healing begin!
I always thought that there would be a Pinochet type move to get at Rumsfeld or Bush if they ever went to Europe after the Administration was out of office. Rumsfeld has already faced such pressure and Bush will be a marked man wherever he goes – if he ever leaves his Texas ranch after his term is ended.
But it is unlikely that any such charges will be brought. JB at Balkinization:
Remember that sections 8 and 6(b) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 effectively insulated government officials from liability for many of the violations of the War Crimes Act they might have committed during the period prior to 2006. Moreover, as Marty has pointed out, there’s a strong argument that a later Justice Department would not prosecute people who reasonably relied on legal advice from a previous Justice Department. Perhaps the Justice Department could argue that the officials’ reliance was unreasonable, but that might be difficult to show.And putting aside the purely legal obstacles to a prosecution for war crimes, there’s also the political cost. Why would an Obama or Clinton Administration waste precious political capital early on with a politically divisive prosecution of former government officials? One can imagine the screaming of countless pundits arguing that the Democrats were trying to criminalize political disagreements about foreign policy. Such a prosecution would make politics extremely bitter and derail any chance for bipartisan cooperation on almost any significant issue. Obama or Clinton would rather get a health care bill passed, deal with the economy, or try to solve the Iraq mess, than have the first several years of their Administrations consumed by a prosecution for war crimes by officials in the Bush Administration.
JB also points out that any trials in venues like the Hague or other international criminal courts would be resisted by a Democratic Administration for the same reason and others as well.
Now certainly there is a strain of anti-Americanism at work in Europe and elsewhere overseas with regard to this issue as well as a smug, self-righteousness on the part of the European left that nauseates me.
For more than 70 years as the Communists murdered, tortured, starved, beat, and raped their way across Europe, killing upwards of 20 million – people whose only crime was that they didn’t believe they were living in a workers’ paradise, the European left gave the thugs a pass and even supported them in their efforts to cow the populations of Eastern Europe into submission while doing their damnedest to see the west defenseless against communist aggression.
How dare they. They do not have the moral standing of a jackrabbit. For them to all of a sudden get their panties in a twist over American violations of international law when they spent decades ignoring the greatest, most heartless human butchers in world history is an example of monumental hypocrisy and moral blindness that a thousand years from now will be the shame of western civilization. And for the anti-American European left to climb atop this moral high horse now speaks of a selective outrage that should sicken anyone with an ounce of historical perspective and a modicum of human decency.
No. This is an American problem. And we Americans must deal with it. Perhaps it would be worth the political war for a Democratic president to at least initiate an investigation by the Justice Department into the question of war crimes committed by the highest ranking members of the Bush Administration. The results of that investigation may conclude that the principals are innocent or just not prosecutable.
But the consequences of doing nothing are equally problematic. Somewhere along the line, a majority of Americans must be made aware of what these men have done and why what they approved is wrong. The damage is deep. But I disagree with hysterical liberals that our reputation and moral leadership is gone, never to be seen again. How we deal with what has been wrought in our name says volumes about us as a people and how determined we are to clean up our own house.
I have given up trying to convince most of my readers of the necessity in speaking out against what has transpired these last several years with regards to the approval of torture at the highest levels of our government. But I will continue to write about it because it is something about which I feel very strongly. I will not, as many liberals do, berate those of you who disagree with me. This is a matter of conscience. Each of us must examine our own beliefs, our own mind and come to our own conclusions in this matter.
Anything else would be un-American.
9:14 am
[...] the juices the past two days. If I were going to write about anything, it would probably be this Rick Moran piece in which he asserts that torture is wrong but the left is worse (especially those damned [...]
9:53 am
I agree with rethuglican.
we should torture Republican leadership and THEN ask them ifn they think it’s moral
9:57 am
Rick,
I think part of the reason you aren’t seeing a lot of support for speaking out against these kinds of interrogation techniques is that the legal definition of “torture” is not clear to most people and probably does not match what many consider to be “real” torture.
And, when we have those on the left (and some prominent politicians) equating underware on a prisoner’s head to feeding live people into shredders, my tendency is to not support any investigation which would turn into a political witch-hunt.
I do find some of the things that have been done disturbing and a good open discussion of just what we are willing to accept as a society needs to take place. I just don’t think it is politically possible.
9:58 am
Let’s face it Rick, your readers are wingnuts. Most of them are cowards who think that by throwing a few Arab names around that they can impress all their friends they play RISK with.
The fact that we have had our torture cherry popped is the fault of Republicans. It is the most grevious of sins and it has sullied us in ways we can only guess.
I would love to watch Retire05 get waterboarded and then beg for mercy.
Tell you what, I’d like to see EVERY Republican tortured.
Is that so wrong?
Huh?
10:29 am
Oh grow the hell up rethug – your response is so pre-school predictable. Neener Neener.
I say the next stupid liberal whining about waterboarding gets his head slowly sliced off with a rusted serrated knife – won’t be any begging for mercy will there?
Is that so wrong?
Just for everyone’s info: Rethug is also a lover of sock puppets. He posted the same comment three times under three different names. Evidently, on his planet they’ve never heard of “comment moderation.”
ed.
10:44 am
Question to the moderator at this website- How does response 2 posted at 9:53AM agree with comments from response 6 posted at the later time of 9:58 AM? Is Bobble clairvoyant or is ther sock puppetry at this site?
The answer is sock puppetry on Rethug’s part.
ed.
10:45 am
“Torture” is a vague claim. Do you, Rick, consider waterboarding “torture”? If so, then do you also think that every CodePinko that waterboards fellow CodePinkos in the public square during their protest marches should be found and prosecuted?
If you want to be specific about what contitutes “torture”, and it a) inflicts physical pain and b) creates permanent damage to the person receiving the torture that fits (a), I am willing to listen. But to generalize sleep depravation as torture, or the playing of loud music, waterboarding (which leaves no permanent damage and is not painful) as torture when there are thousands, perhaps millions, of American lives at stake, goes beyond the realm.
Hey, rethugican, can we waterboard the Democratic congressman that has been negotiating with FARC against our own policy of not dealing with terrorist organizations? Or do you only have sympathy for the terrorists?
Yes waterboarding is torture. The definition:
This was later amended to include “cruel and inhumane treatment” which the rest of the world agrees that waterboarding falls under.
Code pinkos are not trying to get info thus are not torturing anyone.
ed.
11:08 am
Just for clarity’s sake, Rick, would you like to describe the number of “wingnuts” that you had to cleanse from your comments for being unwilling to take your heart-felt opinion in the constructive sense it was offered? As opposed to the sock-puppet posts calling for all Republicans to be water-boarded.
I doubt you bonked any. Cons who want to be ditto-heads have learned by now that this is not the place for lockstep thought.
But the point is valid: what is and is not torture? Where is the line we cannot ethically cross? Does the Administration’s duty to protect America ever take priority over laws governing human rights?
But I take exception with you and Ashcroft (although you come at it from different vantagepoints.) I am heartened that these conversations do take place in the highest levels. I would be much more alarmed to know that we had a “do what you have to do; I don’t want to know about it,” ethic. And I have no doubt that that ethic has existed in our government many times in our nation’s history.
My point is that this is a hugely important and complex topic. Your additions to the conversation are commendble. The convergence of the presumed-moral vs. the presumed-pragmatic has value in many policy discussions. Ultimately, the best course is known retrospectively, if ever.
11:19 am
How many times has the US waterboarded? Say it with me – Three.
And you can sincerely state that the THREE times the US has waterboarded, has affected your conscience so greatly that you believe the only salve is to try members of the Bush administration for war crimes?
And you truly believe that an enemy combatant, that admitted he personally beheaded an innocent American citizen, sans anethesia – (I’m sure Daniel Pearl suffered much less pain than waterboarding) is of such a delicate nature that the USA inflicted such an agonizing pain via waterboarding, yet miraculously he continues to live to this very day – in no pain whatsoever.
My conscience is very clear. An absolute degenerate murderer is devoid of any physical pain, so waterboarding an animal such as KSM is not even close to torture.
My conscience might start to bother me when factual proof by other than unamed “highly placed sources” indicates the US has used waterboarding more than, oh maybe 10000 times.
11:24 am
retire05 Said:
10:45 am
“Torture” is a vague claim. Do you, Rick, consider waterboarding “torture”? If so, then do you also think that every CodePinko that waterboards fellow CodePinkos in the public square during their protest marches should be found and prosecuted?
If you want to be specific about what contitutes “torture”, and it a) inflicts physical pain and b) creates permanent damage to the person receiving the torture that fits (a), I am willing to listen.
I am guessing by your blogger name that you feed at the public trough as a retiree – probably from the navy or army. You have to defend the indefensible because your bread and butter is provided by the very same machine which tortures innocent people. If you ever had a real job – outside of the robotic routines of a soldier, you would be more sensitive to human suffering. You are alone and lonely. Probably poor, and probably angry about your lot in life. Your poor choices put you where you are. You shouldn’t turn your disappointment in your own life into a vendetta against other people.
11:24 am
We treat our own servicemen going through resistence training worse than any of these detainees have been treated. Torture is what the NVC did, what the Nazi’s did, what Saddam did, not what was done by the US in this war.
Wise up. The future enemies of this country are watching to see how weak we really are.
If you define torture as “treatment too severe to be done to bad people but ok to be done in the training of our own pilots,” you should find a more appropriate word.
11:30 am
Let’s examine what transpired at that notorious Iraqi Abu G. House of Torture under the evil Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld regime. The NY Times only did like 50 front page stories on it. The fact is more people died in Fat Teddy’s Oldsmobile than at the prison. Mary Jo remains unavilable for comment.
So 3 high-value Al Qaeda types were waterboarded? Boo friggin’ hoo. How many of our own military endured the same procedure?
It seems to me the liberals would have no problem with any of this crap if under the auspices of a Clinton. God forbid I mention Jimmuh Carter, who would only make anything worse for Americans. Which two recent presidentes were responsible for dismantling much of the intelligence community and military? Oh yes, let’s fight the mad mullahs with marquis of Queensbury rules. Panties over head/fake menstrual blood= cutting off heads. Everyone has opinions and mine is that the hate america first crowd who wants to ass kiss the euroweenies and UN slimeballs are traitors. I don’t see why The NY Times gets way with revealing national security secrets or why we tolerate that self-hating Jew Soros’ interference in our political process or why Carter doesn’t keep his trap shut.
Let’s just sing Kumbaya and Lennon’s Imagine and all just get along. Nothing wrong with more pc sharia taking over our schools either. Even so-called conservative Condi Rice is singing the blacks are victims song and colin powell defends rev. wright and obamamessiah. All THAT is torture to me.
11:30 am
Blaming “leftists” of today for what different leftists did 100 years ago is pretty lame and desperate.
12:01 pm
“They do not have the moral standing of a jackrabbit.”
On behalf of all the jackrabbits in the world, I would like the opportunity to lodge this protest. To put jackrabbits, whose only sins are to have exceedingly long legs and ears and multiply copiously, in the same category as European Leftards is just plain wrong.
Shame, Shame, Shame.
/sarcasm off
12:06 pm
“Code pinkos are not trying to get info thus are not torturing anyone.”
Rick: Just to be argumentative – if US personnel were to waterboard someone just for the fun of it and not because they needed any information – it would be OK?
Sorry, Rick. That crap don’t float. It is like saying you can’t say the “N” word unless you are black. If someone is being waterboarded, the person is being waterboarded. Period!
12:53 pm
I have three points to offer:
Point 1: Has anyone ever surveyed or done a deep investigation of US police departments’ treatment of captured offenders? We have seen isolated Vcam instances on TV, but I suspect such behavior is far more rampant.
As to publicity of such actions, we have shipped overseas many films that depict just such actions by our police every year, for the “enjoyment” of foreign audiences. Even in Holland, a number of Dutchmen have commented on the brutality seen over and over in flim after film, and have asked if such behavior was the norm in the US. The point being that if the films are a success at the box office in the US, what does that say about the public’s thirst for brutality?
Yes, it is most often a fictional portrayal that they see, but to see these films year after year raises questions. Are we really this brutal? Does this happen often? Why does the film industry spew out ths sort of thing in volume every year? It sells.
The America haters seize on our penchant for brutality in films as evidence of a failed culture, and they are not at all surprised to see evidence coming from Iraq (and from the US, too!) that we do in fact practice forms of torture and brutality, though they have been shocked by it—for sure. This only confirms what they have suspected all along, I suggest.
We therefore have fostered a negative image in many places that has been nutured by our export of films showing lawlessness, brutality in jails, and violence on the streets, and then confirmed it all by published scenes from our overseas prisons in Iraq.
The bottom line is that we have a lot of cleaning up to do to reverse this image of brutality—and the fact of brutality—in the US. However, I sincerely doubt that we can shift the film industry away from their current love of violent films.
Point 2: The next President should not only have the Justice Department investigate and prosecute US violators of the laws regarding real torture in the US and in overseas theaters. He should also have them perform deep investigations nation-wide into our police departments and their violations of the rights of citizens and others in their custody.
Point 3: Of course, I have left out the definition of “real torture,” but it most certainly must include serious bodily harm. I reiterate my previous position, however, that regardless of the definitions, investigations, prosecutions, and the laws passed, some forms of torture will continue to be practiced as the situation warrants it—but now by using far more circumspect and secret measures.
1:28 pm
You (from the right) and everybody else from the left will want to prosecute the Bush administration for not doing MORE to get information from terrorists… but only after a nuke takes out a US city. This is your second bleeding heart, crappy post on this topic in a week, and you’re trying my patience.
1:40 pm
“I am guessing by your blogger name that you feed at the public trough as a retiree – probably from the navy or army. You have to defend the indefensibel because your bread and butter is provided by the very same machine which tortures innocent people. If you ever had a real job – outside of the robotic routines of a soldier, youi would be more sensitive to human suffering. You are alone and lonely. Probably poor, and probably arngy about your lot in life. Your poor choices put you were you are. You shouldn’t turn your disappointment in your own life into a vendetta against other people.”
WoW! What a genius you must be to be able to determine a person’s entire life by an internet moniker. Can we assume you are some college professor who is upset that you can’t shove your socialist/Marxist views down the throats of all your student charges? Or is it just that you subscribe to the belief that anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be a loser? Not to mention your apparant disdain for the military. BTW, it is Navy and Army. Capital letters for those who don’t have the intellect to know any different.
Believe me, Jumbo, my moniker has nothing to do with my life style or sucking from the public teat. If you must know, it reflects a personal goal I set for myself years ago. One that I acheived, no thanks to any government agency. And believe me when I tell you that I could probably buy and sell you ten times over because what I have learned is that those of your ilk who spew such vitriol are usually the losers they accuse others of being.
Now, I do find it interesting that Rick would say that if waterboarding is accepted voluntarily, it is not torture. It seems that his take on torture depends on whether the person being “tortured” has given consent. So the act itself is not considered torture unless it is against one’s consent. Sorry, that dog won’t hunt. Waterboarding either IS torture or IT IS NOT. A person’s approval has nothing to do with the act. And you either think that it IS an illegal activity and ALL people who engage in waterboarding should be prosecuted, willingly or not, or no one should be prosecuted. You can’t have it both ways for the sake of convenience of your beliefs.
While I can respect someone’s view that the U.S. needs to take the high moral road, not one of you can offer any proof that doing so has prevented the deaths of any Americans, or much less the torture of anyone captured by the terrorists. I would refer to the recent event where American captives had their fingers cut off and sent to officals before they were found beheaded.
I think I should also point out that there are some who are blind to the type of enemy we are fighting. They care not if we torture, nay, they view our humanity as a weakness. And they will not become more humane due to our own humanity. When one believes that removing the enemies head prevents that enemy from entering Heaven, our reluctance to do what is necessary (and I don’t include the treatment John McCain and Sam Johnson received at the hands of the North Vietnames as necessary) will not prevent the removal of any more heads. It only enables the terrorists to believe that we are morally weak.
1:46 pm
I am amazed by the comments of those that I presume to be on the left side of the political spectrum. As someone who has gone through SERE School, I can assure you that I am not suffering long term effects from the loud music, sleep and food deprivation, stress positions, humiliation, and occasional open palm slap to the face that I had to endure from this training.
To somehow equate this treatment and the events at Abu Gharib and the interrogations of some of the worst terrorists in the world that conspired to kill over 3,000 Americans, mainly civilians, to the chopping off of heads, blowing up people in a market place, or flying planes into buildings, is beyond the pale.
Until some of these folks that are too weak-willed to to defend themselves, and rely on others such as the military, grow a backbone and realize that we cannot play nice with these extremists and expect to get anywhere besides dead. This enemy only respects power and fear – thus the reason that Sharia law is so appealing to them.
We will never be able to solve this issue through negotiation – Look at the Isreali – Palestine issue. We have to be tougher than they are, meaner than they are, and willing to do what it takes to win. I am not talking about total disregard for the law of war either. The military needs to be able to do the hard work that needs to be done without some whiny reporter sticking a camera into everything that goes on and second guessing what should have been done. It is hard to just do your job at your desk all day long with someone looking over your shoulder, much less trying to fight the enemy with someone eager for you to make a mistake so they can broadcast it to the whole world.
Rick usually has some great commentary and he has expressed his opinion nicely but I have to respectfully diagree with him on this issue.
Semper Fi,
Big Chuck
2:05 pm
One other thing; this whole thread is based on an article written by reporters who seemingly have derived their information from those ever famous “unnamed sources”. If the very principals engaged in those meetings are not talking, who is?
Could it be that we are, once again, dealing with rogue CIA types who have repeatedly had their clocks cleaned for their lack of production by the current administration? But instead of giving this report the small “grain of salt” it deserves, there are those who will accept the report as gospel since surely the MSM would never pad a report.
2:29 pm
I am always amazed at the cowardice of guys like Jimbo. I would bet a paycheck that he would never consider speaking his vitriol to the face of somebody he disagrees with. Smart-ass flaming emails don’t impress anybody Jimmy-boy, they only make us think you’re a coward. Learn to communicate disagreement in a civil manner. And if you weren’t hiding behind your moniker, I would say all of this to your face.
4:17 pm
“If so, then do you also think that every CodePinko that waterboards fellow CodePinkos in the public square during their protest marches should be found and prosecuted?”
Can we just put this one to bed please? Someone who enjoys being cut and beaten with whips is not being totured because they consent. Someone who does not consent to being beaten with whips and cut, but is having these things done to them while in custody is being tortured.
The same goes for the tired and ridiculous argument that military training involving waterboarding is not torture therefore waterboarding is not torture.
It is like sex really. With consent it is a sex, without it is rape. No-one would argue that since a husband having sex with his wife is sex, forcing someone to have sex with you is not rape.
Can we never hear this argument again please?
4:24 pm
Rick,
No, this is not a matter of individual conscience. This is a matter of national morality. Nations are moral entities, not because they, as constructs, have moral conscience, but because their founding and guiding principles are either adjudged moral or not. The entire history, public identity, and underlying philosophy of the U.S. is pro the dignity of the individual and thus anti-torture. Read the Constitution. Read the Declaration of Independence. Read Lincoln’s second inaugural address. Read the Federalist papers. Then try to argue that the moral center of this nation would allow torture. And don’t kid yourself. Waterboarding is torture. You don’t believe it? Japanese commanders were tried and convicted after WWII for employing it. You want to argue that the current “detainees” are not “soldiers”? The moral history of the U.S., as opposed to the Geneva accords, has never made such a distinction. Bad guys these detainees may be. But they are also human beings and thus, by the standards of OUR nation, should not be subjected to torture. To argue otherwise does, indeed, undermine the integrity of this nation, just as the willingness of the European left in the days of the Soviet Union undermined the integrity of many European nations.
1. Stop lecturing me. You’re a colossal bore.
2. What the hell are you talking about? I know waterboarding is torture. I said so. And there is nothing certain about these people’s status. By any rational definition, extra state actors are not “soldiers.” Does that mean we should treat them any differently? Absolutely not. But get off your goddamn moral high horse. You are shrill and hectoring and again, a bore.
3. Nations are moral when they can afford to be – period. Get your head out of the clouds and join the rest of us.
ed.
6:27 pm
The Geneva convention was never violated, as a fact if we followed it we would have no prisoners. All of them would have been tried on the battlefield and shot. That would be IAW international law.
7:08 pm
Scrapiron,
Whether or not the Geneva accords were violated is certainly arguable, but since I did not say they were, I don’t see the reason for your post.
8:22 pm
Rick, I confess to being confused. I see you are eagerly anticapating those pesky leftist Euro judges pursuing former US officials and jailing them. This pursuit will apparently be for the crime of successfully preventing another attack on the US by authorizing harsh interrogation techniques against known terrorist leaders and planners. Oh, yes and for being Republican.
Nice touch, comparing Ashcroft to Albert Speers. So is Bush Pinochet or Hitler.
9:38 pm
Let’s face it – war and torture to the right has always been about trying to ‘feel’ powerful in a big scary world, the big scary world that 9/11 brought in.
Remember, we are not talking about torturing people who actually have cut off peoples heads and we’re certainly not talking about a ‘ticking time bomb’ scenario. We’re talking about torturing as a means to obtain intelligence from various slobs who are probably guilty of little more than having a misguided sense of nationalism for the 3rd-world country in which they were born. It’s sure to win hearts and minds…
Oh, and the one’s we don’t torture, we just keep them locked-up indefinitely without any legal recourse because we ‘suspect’ they were up to no good.
Such is the emotionalism that drives the right, sigh.
12:28 am
[...] And even the right is troubled. See Rick Moran at Rightwing Nuthouse: [...]
1:07 am
“But I disagree with hysterical liberals that our reputation and moral leadership is gone, never to be seen again. How we deal with what has been wrought in our name says volumes about us as a people and how determined we are to clean up our own house.”
Amen and Amen again.
1:43 am
retire05 Said:
10:45 am
“’Torture’ is a vague claim. Do you, Rick, consider waterboarding ‘torture’?”
I’ve posted this link before for you r05:
http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
Sure sounds like torture to me.
Again, let’s assume it’s not torture (although I think that’s an untenable position to take)—what did we get for “pushing the edge”? Not a damn thing. No plots foiled, to ticking bombs defused. The best I’ve heard is we got info that we already had . . . without resorting to torture:
“The DNI documents portray the capture and intermittent interrogations of Zubaida as crucial to unraveling much of what the government knows about the Sept. 11 attacks and the internal operations of al-Qaeda. But some of the portrayal appears to be at odds with other published reports, and intelligence sources indicated yesterday that Zubaida’s case is more complicated than the administration let on.
Zubaida “was wounded in the capture operation” in Pakistan in March 2002, and “likely would have died” if the CIA had not provided medical attention, according to the documents. During an initial interrogation, he provided information “that he probably viewed as nominal,” but which included identifying Mohammed as the Sept. 11 mastermind who used the nickname “Mukhtar,” the documents say. The information “opened up new leads” that eventually resulted in Mohammed’s capture, the documents say.
But in his recent book, “The One Percent Doctrine,” Ron Suskind reported that a tipster led the CIA directly to Mohammed and subsequently collected a $25 million reward. Intelligence sources said yesterday that Suskind’s description is correct but that Zubaida’s information was also helpful.
What the DNI documents also do not mention is that the CIA had identified Mohammed’s nickname in August 2001, according to the Sept. 11 commission report. The commission found that the agency failed to connect the information with previous intelligence identifying Mukhtar as an al-Qaeda associate plotting terrorist attacks, and identified that failure as one of the crucial missed opportunities before Sept. 11.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/06/AR2006090602142_pf.html
The other aspect of all this is the constant undertone of “well, you have to remember how people were feeling after9/11” when discussing torture. We all remember . . . fear and anger were thick in the air. The trouble is, thise emotions suggest a desire to hurt “them”, to get some level of petty revenge, not to calmly and objectively gether information. That supports “torture” (let’s hurt this terrorist ba$tard) as opposed to “necessary intelligence gathering”.
1:51 am
@ Scrapiron:
“The Geneva convention was never violated, as a fact if we followed it we would have no prisoners. All of them would have been tried on the battlefield and shot. That would be IAW international law.”
That’s one of the silliest things I’ve seen posted on this topic, on any board. I’d love to know what part of the GC says shoot people you didn’t capture fighting. Back this nonsensical phallus-waving up please.
3:25 am
Cheney, Others OK’d Harsh Interrogations
...
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh inte…
6:15 am
I think we outta waterboar jimmah cotter for going to talk with hammas nezt week, what a loser, the WORST prez we’ve ever had.
I am sorry, but I just don’t consider waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprovation and a few other things torture. Just consider what is being done to us, slow sawing off of heads, can you even imagine the pain, and they think NOTHING of doing this.
I am not justifying torture but if they need to get info from a KNOWN terrorist that may have info on a terror plot or info or planted bombs that will blow our guys up in Iraq, I say go for it.
You all can gasp and call me callous but i’m sorry, thats how I feel and I’m tired of the coddling of these known terrorists.
8:11 am
Drewsmom:
“Just consider what is being done to us, slow sawing off of heads, can you even imagine the pain, and they think NOTHING of doing this.”
So Enhanced Interrogation isn’t torture, because terrorists do worse things? Pointing out how evil the terrorists are sounds like a justification to hurt them back. Does torture become not-torture if the subject is reeeeeeealy bad?
And yet again, they are NOT known terrorists for the most part. The vast majority are NOT members of AQ, NOT sawing off heads, NOT shooting at out boys, NOT guilty.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/bruns.htm
Data from a war crimes trial of nazis who used Enhanced Interrogation—that’s actually the term they used. The Allies shot them for commiting torture. They actually banned waterboarding and extreme cold as being even beyond their acceptable range. Their defenses were it wasn’t that severe, we were ordered to do it, we even had doctors present to make sure the prisoners were safe (why does this all sound so familiar?), we didn’t use it on everybody, just the real high value targets, our government lawyers said it was acceptable . . .
. . . and we shot them for it.
9:45 am
busboy33 Said:
“That’s one of the silliest things I’ve seen posted on this topic, on any board. I’d love to know what part of the GC says shoot people you didn’t capture fighting. Back this nonsensical phallus-waving up please.”
Unlawful combatants, spies, and terrorists are not covered by the GC at all. The historical resolution to their status was summary execution.
Ricks point is that the harsh interrogation treatments are illegal under US law and other international treaties to which we are a party. The GC is not at issue.
11:27 am
Busboy 33
Scrapiron said: “The Geneva convention was never violated, as a fact if we followed it we would have no prisoners. All of them would have been tried on the battlefield and shot. That would be IAW international law.”
You said: “That’s one of the silliest things I’ve seen posted on this topic, on any board. I’d love to know what part of the GC says shoot people you didn’t capture fighting. Back this nonsensical phallus-waving up please.”
Wikipedia (as a source) says: “The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any lawful status for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states.”
The Taliban and Al Quaeda are not nation states. Therefore the Geneva Convention protections do not apply to them. Scrapiron is correct – A summary Court Martial convened on the battlefield with an immediate execution of the verdict resulting in death by firing squad is perfectly legal by international standards.
That does not imply it is legal by US standards.
11:44 am
Rick, you’re spot-on on tortue issue, just as you are with your stark, realistic assessment of the War. Keep sluggin’ em out of the park.
1:13 pm
“I am sorry, but I just don’t consider waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprovation and a few other things torture. ”
Well then, why not allow them to be used on suspects by police in normal criminal investigations?
If it makes it easier, let’s say that the person in question is suspected of murdering a child in a gruesome way and may do it again if he does not confess.
4:02 pm
You know, you can never really rely on anything a prisoner tells you unless you torture waterboard them first.
6:31 pm
SSchell and Mark:
Art. 4 of the GC requires that all captured persons during wartime be given a hearing before a compentent tribunal to determine their classification. Until they ARE given that hearing, they are required to be treated as POWs.
And again, you’ve already assumed that everybody “captured” is pulled off the battlefield guns blazing. The vast majorities of prisoners at Gitmo have been either not linked to terrorism in any credible way or have actually been demonstrated to be innocent.
Posted this link before, to the documentation of the classification hearings
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/detainees/csrt/index.html
If they are not sabotuers, then just pumping lead into them is illegal, war or no, GC or no.
11:17 pm
“If they are not sabotuers, then just pumping lead into them is illegal, war or no, GC or no.”
You are right. I forgot about the “Thou shalt not Litter” section. My Bad!
12:36 am
SShiell:
“You are right. I forgot about the “Thou shalt not Litter” section. My Bad!”
So the thought of torturing or advocating shooting completely innocent people, rather than give you even the slightest pause, compels you to make a joke? Am I reading that wrong? Kill the ba$tards becuase they’re murderers, and if they’re not then murder them anyway because . . . hell, I guess no reason really. I just likes me sum killin!
You live your life the way you want to, and believe what you want to, but I have to tell you that’s pretty disgusting.
6:49 am
Hold interrogations at The Vault, then you won’t feel guilty while many a sado-masochists will be satisified.
Besides sex clubs already have all the equipment necessary to get the job done.
Just keep saying Americans don’t torture however remember every night around midnight thousands are screaming from their dungeons in delightful estasy.
The hyprocrisy of it all; no torture to save lives but for sex it’s perfectly natural.
7:21 am
busyboy, sorry, your comments do not change my mind but you are entitled to your opinions. I am not saying cuz they do it that is it O.K. for us to do it but if info is gained from what I consider NOT to be torture I am O.K. with it.
And drongo, I am not talking about America and our criminals although child murderers deserve the DEATH penalty, but I am talking about terrorists. No, I do not think we randomly pick up anybody, most are let go when it is determined they can give no info are no a threat, but our left wing press never writes this info.
Nice try guys but I’m stickin to my guns.
Have a nice week-end.
9:31 am
“So the thought of torturing or advocating shooting completely innocent people, rather than give you even the slightest pause, compels you to make a joke?”
No, I paused for a moment. For you to get your knickers in a wad becasue 3 people got waterboarded is the joke.
“Kill the ba$tards becuase they’re murderers, and if they’re not then murder them anyway because . . . hell, I guess no reason really. I just likes me sum killin!”
No. I pointed out that the GC does not recognize rights for combattants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states. The Taliban and Al Quaeda are not nation states. Therefore the Geneva Convention protections do not apply to them. Notice the word “Combatants” – I did not say civilians.
“You live your life the way you want to, and believe what you want to, but I have to tell you that’s pretty disgusting.”
I will and I give not one sh*t at what you find disgusting.
12:35 pm
Drewsmom:
Thank you, and as you are entitled to yours.
2:46 pm
“And drongo, I am not talking about America and our criminals although child murderers deserve the DEATH penalty, but I am talking about terrorists. ”
Why not? What is the difference?
9:07 pm
I find it exceedingly odd that everyone would focus on the damned terrorists and their torture, and no one even pauses to think about US citizens being tortured right here in America in our own jails. Seems we have two faces about this: ignore our own home problems and whine about the terrorists.
1:03 am
Definitely keep writing about this issue. You’re turning out some of the better arguments against torture in the conservative blogging circle.