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	<title>Comments on: DEFENDING THE POPE AND OTHER COUNTERINTUITIVE UNDERTAKINGS</title>
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	<description>Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2020 22:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: bobwire</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1467979</link>
		<dc:creator>bobwire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 03:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I remember the stations of the cross, and the rosemary. the rosemary is some long beaded chain. How the hell did we get through that as kids? What were we supposed to do? I did that. Am I now saved? If not, what is the shortest route to salvation? I am your keenest student and sharpest critic. Pascal's wager.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember the stations of the cross, and the rosemary. the rosemary is some long beaded chain. How the hell did we get through that as kids? What were we supposed to do? I did that. Am I now saved? If not, what is the shortest route to salvation? I am your keenest student and sharpest critic. Pascal&#8217;s wager.</p>
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		<title>By: bobwire</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1467977</link>
		<dc:creator>bobwire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 03:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1467977</guid>
		<description>I also was raised a Catholic; here is my story.
Apparently when a catholic marries a non- the other must relent and let the offspring be brought up in the catholic faith. So there I was, undergoing the sacraments at parochial schools with nuns and non-nun teachers.

I don't remember communion, and the first penance that perforce was needed. But I do recall later penances, where I had to confess my failings against the ten commandments. Because I was a good kid, I made up some trite to the priest. I did not have the strength to say I had not sinned. So I made something up and prayed a few Our Fathers and Hail Marys...I must have done something wrong, even as a kid. My head spins now about this psychological torture...original sin was supposed to be absolved by baptism! 

My first stronger exposure came in the third grade when our secular teacher Mrs. Angster (her real name!) declared that she had a sure place in heaven because she had converted two people to catholicism. Further, I learned from her that if you died with a scapula around your neck you would also go straight to heaven. Choosing the easier route, I wore a scapula for a while...like dog tags I suppose.

Fourth grade the doubt begins...was it Nina Punaro or Elizabeth Schmoller, I'm not sure but there I was/we were seeing a wet pool gather about her desk. All she had to do was to say she had to go to the bathroom, but somehow it was easier for her to face the shame of a puddle of urine at her feet than to raise her hand. At that early age my heart went out to her, and against the institution.

Time for confirmation, robes, the bishop and his pointy hat. Sure, I kissed his ring, but did not stand up when there was a call for those who would abstain from alcohol until I don't know when...21? There were many of us who did not stand up, and although I had not tasted alcohol, I saw no reason to make a pledge against something I did not know...my parents were not in my early eyes alcoholics...the whole exercise seemed preposterous. I would pass...

Fast forward to senior year at a Christian brothers high school. I am sure I have not gone to penance before the Eucharist for quite a while. There we are discussing divorce, and one of my best friends holds forth. But I beg to differ. I feel that divorce is it's own punishment, that the Lord God need not weigh in on this matter. Are not choices already served? Need we be punished doubly? I was seventeen. I felt that divorce was its own punishment. I felt somewhat vindicated by our Brother's knowing nod.

Off to university, not being dragged to Mass by my mother, I never went again. Papal infallability I could never get behind after learning about Galileo, and the pope's children. It's OK if you're a pope, it's ok if you're a king, it's ok if you're a republican.

Still, I had connections to my past...so I learned about liberation theology! Imagine if the downtrodden of the earth only wanted enough rice and beans. Or corn and beans. And that these meek might inherit enough to not protest so loudly!

who was it who gunned down archbishop romero in El Salvador? It was Reagan supported death squads. rick moran what can you say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also was raised a Catholic; here is my story.<br />
Apparently when a catholic marries a non- the other must relent and let the offspring be brought up in the catholic faith. So there I was, undergoing the sacraments at parochial schools with nuns and non-nun teachers.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember communion, and the first penance that perforce was needed. But I do recall later penances, where I had to confess my failings against the ten commandments. Because I was a good kid, I made up some trite to the priest. I did not have the strength to say I had not sinned. So I made something up and prayed a few Our Fathers and Hail Marys&#8230;I must have done something wrong, even as a kid. My head spins now about this psychological torture&#8230;original sin was supposed to be absolved by baptism! </p>
<p>My first stronger exposure came in the third grade when our secular teacher Mrs. Angster (her real name!) declared that she had a sure place in heaven because she had converted two people to catholicism. Further, I learned from her that if you died with a scapula around your neck you would also go straight to heaven. Choosing the easier route, I wore a scapula for a while&#8230;like dog tags I suppose.</p>
<p>Fourth grade the doubt begins&#8230;was it Nina Punaro or Elizabeth Schmoller, I&#8217;m not sure but there I was/we were seeing a wet pool gather about her desk. All she had to do was to say she had to go to the bathroom, but somehow it was easier for her to face the shame of a puddle of urine at her feet than to raise her hand. At that early age my heart went out to her, and against the institution.</p>
<p>Time for confirmation, robes, the bishop and his pointy hat. Sure, I kissed his ring, but did not stand up when there was a call for those who would abstain from alcohol until I don&#8217;t know when&#8230;21? There were many of us who did not stand up, and although I had not tasted alcohol, I saw no reason to make a pledge against something I did not know&#8230;my parents were not in my early eyes alcoholics&#8230;the whole exercise seemed preposterous. I would pass&#8230;</p>
<p>Fast forward to senior year at a Christian brothers high school. I am sure I have not gone to penance before the Eucharist for quite a while. There we are discussing divorce, and one of my best friends holds forth. But I beg to differ. I feel that divorce is it&#8217;s own punishment, that the Lord God need not weigh in on this matter. Are not choices already served? Need we be punished doubly? I was seventeen. I felt that divorce was its own punishment. I felt somewhat vindicated by our Brother&#8217;s knowing nod.</p>
<p>Off to university, not being dragged to Mass by my mother, I never went again. Papal infallability I could never get behind after learning about Galileo, and the pope&#8217;s children. It&#8217;s OK if you&#8217;re a pope, it&#8217;s ok if you&#8217;re a king, it&#8217;s ok if you&#8217;re a republican.</p>
<p>Still, I had connections to my past&#8230;so I learned about liberation theology! Imagine if the downtrodden of the earth only wanted enough rice and beans. Or corn and beans. And that these meek might inherit enough to not protest so loudly!</p>
<p>who was it who gunned down archbishop romero in El Salvador? It was Reagan supported death squads. rick moran what can you say?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Austin</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1465064</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1465064</guid>
		<description>Dear Dave Carl:

“Salvation is a process of a lifetime and hopefully by the end of your life you’re in a state where you’re open to grace and mercy.”

You are right, Salvation is not done in an instant---even Paul had to wait some years after the Road to Damascus before he could preach. It is worked out in fear and trembling day to day.

My brother and his wife are Protestants, and very conservative ones. I do not discuss theology with them, not because we will argue but because none of us are theologians. Christ will work out the details after our deaths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dave Carl:</p>
<p>“Salvation is a process of a lifetime and hopefully by the end of your life you’re in a state where you’re open to grace and mercy.”</p>
<p>You are right, Salvation is not done in an instant&#8212;even Paul had to wait some years after the Road to Damascus before he could preach. It is worked out in fear and trembling day to day.</p>
<p>My brother and his wife are Protestants, and very conservative ones. I do not discuss theology with them, not because we will argue but because none of us are theologians. Christ will work out the details after our deaths.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carl</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1464460</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1464460</guid>
		<description>To Mike Austin,

I have to say, that is a brilliant quip---"Madame, I lost my faith not my reason." I have had dealings with evangelical groups and although I felt they were sincere in their faith, their method always rubbed me the wrong way. In Catholicism, we don't preach on street corners or hand out Bible tracts to those who most likely will throw them in the nearest trash can. The Catholicism of my parents was one of steady example, one of perserverence through trials and tribulation, one of extending kindness, compassion and generosity to another. When an evangelical would question me whether I was saved, I would reply that it was up to God's mercy if I were or were not. They then would want me to recite this prayer and then practically say---now you're saved. Now I know this is a bit simplistic of an explanation, but at the time it is how it appeared to me. Salvation is a process of a lifetime and hopefully by the end of your life you're in a state where you're open to grace and mercy. The instantaneousness of it all left me scratching my head. Hopefully I haven't given up on the process, and Benedict's visit was a nice boost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Mike Austin,</p>
<p>I have to say, that is a brilliant quip&#8212;&#8221;Madame, I lost my faith not my reason.&#8221; I have had dealings with evangelical groups and although I felt they were sincere in their faith, their method always rubbed me the wrong way. In Catholicism, we don&#8217;t preach on street corners or hand out Bible tracts to those who most likely will throw them in the nearest trash can. The Catholicism of my parents was one of steady example, one of perserverence through trials and tribulation, one of extending kindness, compassion and generosity to another. When an evangelical would question me whether I was saved, I would reply that it was up to God&#8217;s mercy if I were or were not. They then would want me to recite this prayer and then practically say&#8212;now you&#8217;re saved. Now I know this is a bit simplistic of an explanation, but at the time it is how it appeared to me. Salvation is a process of a lifetime and hopefully by the end of your life you&#8217;re in a state where you&#8217;re open to grace and mercy. The instantaneousness of it all left me scratching my head. Hopefully I haven&#8217;t given up on the process, and Benedict&#8217;s visit was a nice boost.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Austin</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1463763</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1463763</guid>
		<description>Dear Rick:

I left the Church at 10 and returned at 33. Since then it has been Mass every Sunday and Confession every Saturday. I do not eat meat on Fridays, but like you detest fish sticks.

It was never a question of which faith to return to once I realized that Christianity was true. There was only one option, and that was Catholicism. A well-known intellectual type whose name has escaped me left the Catholic Church some decades ago. A well-meaning Protestant lady approached him and said, “Well, now you can consider joining our church!” He replied, “Madam, I have lost my faith, not my reason.”

Just so.

Maher will be able to do his comedy shtick for the Carpenter a moment after his own death. I imagine that his performance will be a brief one.

The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Catholicism. How much less a trivial creature like Maher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Rick:</p>
<p>I left the Church at 10 and returned at 33. Since then it has been Mass every Sunday and Confession every Saturday. I do not eat meat on Fridays, but like you detest fish sticks.</p>
<p>It was never a question of which faith to return to once I realized that Christianity was true. There was only one option, and that was Catholicism. A well-known intellectual type whose name has escaped me left the Catholic Church some decades ago. A well-meaning Protestant lady approached him and said, “Well, now you can consider joining our church!” He replied, “Madam, I have lost my faith, not my reason.”</p>
<p>Just so.</p>
<p>Maher will be able to do his comedy shtick for the Carpenter a moment after his own death. I imagine that his performance will be a brief one.</p>
<p>The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Catholicism. How much less a trivial creature like Maher.</p>
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		<title>By: mannning</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1463193</link>
		<dc:creator>mannning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1463193</guid>
		<description>It has always seemed to me that a significant morality was instilled into human beings from the start.  A morality, and an awareness of the idea of God was there.  It can be rejected and covered over, but it is still a potent, transcendental force for most of us.  This morality burgeons forth when needed to solve the problems of life, even when unbidden, and even when unwanted and ridiculed.  

Similarly, a good education from the early years on most often predisposes one to seek one’s own way, and to live by a code that is agreeable to the self.  If that education is slanted by religion, informed by religion, and instilled by religion, it too will burgeon forth with or without conscious assent in future years. 

Thus there are these two factors--inherent morality and education--that are not really capable of being totally suppressed by the minds of most people.  They can be an embarrassment to conscious thought as well, particularly if one has decided to run counter to their moral instincts and teachings. It is a massive internal struggle, I believe, that each of us has to go through (or to avoid, by accepting the morality, accepting the religion, and accepting the teachings without challenge.).  

Rejecting God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost, and all of the rituals, ceremonies, dogmas, miracles and trappings of formal religion is indeed a massive mental and psychological undertaking. I suspect, however, that the truth is as I have said--it is all still there, that religion, just lightly covered over with evasions, counter arguments, misbelieving, and misunderstandings.

One question I posed to myself is: why does the universe, life and man exist at all?  Is there a purpose, or not?  I find it exceedingly difficult to ascribe it all to pure mechanism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has always seemed to me that a significant morality was instilled into human beings from the start.  A morality, and an awareness of the idea of God was there.  It can be rejected and covered over, but it is still a potent, transcendental force for most of us.  This morality burgeons forth when needed to solve the problems of life, even when unbidden, and even when unwanted and ridiculed.  </p>
<p>Similarly, a good education from the early years on most often predisposes one to seek one’s own way, and to live by a code that is agreeable to the self.  If that education is slanted by religion, informed by religion, and instilled by religion, it too will burgeon forth with or without conscious assent in future years. </p>
<p>Thus there are these two factors&#8211;inherent morality and education&#8211;that are not really capable of being totally suppressed by the minds of most people.  They can be an embarrassment to conscious thought as well, particularly if one has decided to run counter to their moral instincts and teachings. It is a massive internal struggle, I believe, that each of us has to go through (or to avoid, by accepting the morality, accepting the religion, and accepting the teachings without challenge.).  </p>
<p>Rejecting God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost, and all of the rituals, ceremonies, dogmas, miracles and trappings of formal religion is indeed a massive mental and psychological undertaking. I suspect, however, that the truth is as I have said&#8211;it is all still there, that religion, just lightly covered over with evasions, counter arguments, misbelieving, and misunderstandings.</p>
<p>One question I posed to myself is: why does the universe, life and man exist at all?  Is there a purpose, or not?  I find it exceedingly difficult to ascribe it all to pure mechanism.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carl</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1462876</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1462876</guid>
		<description>Gayle,
    Good post. My 77 year old mother gets furious at the sight of Bill Maher and wants to throw her shoe at the TV. I just recognize Maher for what he is---a jackass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gayle,<br />
    Good post. My 77 year old mother gets furious at the sight of Bill Maher and wants to throw her shoe at the TV. I just recognize Maher for what he is&#8212;a jackass.</p>
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		<title>By: Gayle Miller</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1462732</link>
		<dc:creator>Gayle Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1462732</guid>
		<description>Then too, "I survived Catholic school" from those of us who actually did so, and in some ways that may be the case.  However, my non-Catholic father was the one who insisted that I be educated in Catholic schools, not because he had agreed to do so when he married my mother but because he felt that it was the most effective mode of education - particularly for rebellious little old me.  As in so many other areas, my father was absolutely correct.  I was educated by the nuns of the Holy Humility of Mary in high school and with only 2 exceptions, was taught entirely by nuns who possessed PhDs in their specific disciplines.  And speaking of discipline, mental discipline was instilled in us on an hourly basis, and that has served me well all my (long) life.  At age 65, I still benefit from the education I received in Cleveland, Ohio at Lourdes Academy all those many years ago.

As I have stated quite clearly on my own site, I have little patience with non-Catholics who feel compelled to tell us how to run our church and how to change our doctrines.  My response is "stick it in your ear" and that response is pretty much always going to be the same.

Dennis Miller said it best last week (and I'm paraphrasing) when he said that it was okay to attack Catholics precisely because Catholics wouldn't take to the streets in riot mode or kill those who had "insulted" them. When someone like Bill Maher runs his ignorant mouth, I just "offer it up" as I was taught to do by the good nuns!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then too, &#8220;I survived Catholic school&#8221; from those of us who actually did so, and in some ways that may be the case.  However, my non-Catholic father was the one who insisted that I be educated in Catholic schools, not because he had agreed to do so when he married my mother but because he felt that it was the most effective mode of education - particularly for rebellious little old me.  As in so many other areas, my father was absolutely correct.  I was educated by the nuns of the Holy Humility of Mary in high school and with only 2 exceptions, was taught entirely by nuns who possessed PhDs in their specific disciplines.  And speaking of discipline, mental discipline was instilled in us on an hourly basis, and that has served me well all my (long) life.  At age 65, I still benefit from the education I received in Cleveland, Ohio at Lourdes Academy all those many years ago.</p>
<p>As I have stated quite clearly on my own site, I have little patience with non-Catholics who feel compelled to tell us how to run our church and how to change our doctrines.  My response is &#8220;stick it in your ear&#8221; and that response is pretty much always going to be the same.</p>
<p>Dennis Miller said it best last week (and I&#8217;m paraphrasing) when he said that it was okay to attack Catholics precisely because Catholics wouldn&#8217;t take to the streets in riot mode or kill those who had &#8220;insulted&#8221; them. When someone like Bill Maher runs his ignorant mouth, I just &#8220;offer it up&#8221; as I was taught to do by the good nuns!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carl</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1462574</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1462574</guid>
		<description>I meant a ratty old bathrobe not bathroom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant a ratty old bathrobe not bathroom</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carl</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/comment-page-1/#comment-1462570</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/04/21/defending-the-pope-and-other-counterintuitive-undertakings/#comment-1462570</guid>
		<description>Rick, 
I thoroughly enjoyed this post. You are slightly older than myself, but I grew up similarly in Catholicism (probably more indoctrinated and without the parents having any intellectual bent) as yourself. Yup, once a Catholic always a Catholic. I also spent time with a religious order from 14-21 (not an experience I would choose to do over) and that probably fermented me further with Catholic sensibilities. I consider myself something of a borderline Catholic as far as practice goes. About 12 years ago I hung around the Eastern Orthodox for a few years(yup, I guess I have a weakness for smells and bells) but even though I met a lot of nice people there, the sensibilities were different. Catholicism is kind of like that old ratty bathroom you want to throw into the trash heap but just can't get yourself to do it.
   Now as far as the Church's position on moral questions, my answer to those who disagree or even rage against them is try to intellectual understand the rationale of where they're coming from. All of these encyclicals have their theological and philosophical bases. They're just not coming out of the Vatican toaster like pop tarts. Now, one is free to hold whatever position one wants to at the end of the day, but please don't call the Church dumb, stupid or assinine because it isn't. I disagree with the RC's on a lot of issues (plus I threw my halo away about 30 years ago) but I do respect the intellectual depth that goes into the formation of these opinions.

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick,<br />
I thoroughly enjoyed this post. You are slightly older than myself, but I grew up similarly in Catholicism (probably more indoctrinated and without the parents having any intellectual bent) as yourself. Yup, once a Catholic always a Catholic. I also spent time with a religious order from 14-21 (not an experience I would choose to do over) and that probably fermented me further with Catholic sensibilities. I consider myself something of a borderline Catholic as far as practice goes. About 12 years ago I hung around the Eastern Orthodox for a few years(yup, I guess I have a weakness for smells and bells) but even though I met a lot of nice people there, the sensibilities were different. Catholicism is kind of like that old ratty bathroom you want to throw into the trash heap but just can&#8217;t get yourself to do it.<br />
   Now as far as the Church&#8217;s position on moral questions, my answer to those who disagree or even rage against them is try to intellectual understand the rationale of where they&#8217;re coming from. All of these encyclicals have their theological and philosophical bases. They&#8217;re just not coming out of the Vatican toaster like pop tarts. Now, one is free to hold whatever position one wants to at the end of the day, but please don&#8217;t call the Church dumb, stupid or assinine because it isn&#8217;t. I disagree with the RC&#8217;s on a lot of issues (plus I threw my halo away about 30 years ago) but I do respect the intellectual depth that goes into the formation of these opinions.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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