1.”Wars don’t pay for themselves man. The money’s got to come from somewhere. Well… unless you control the printing press. Then deficits don’t matter, right? That’s working out really well for us.”
Most definitely, they dont. My contention is that increasing the capital gains tax will be a further deterrent for people to get into the market. The hope in increasing these taxes is to ultimately increase revenue. But would they ? Thats pretty questionable.

Another thing that most people dont consider other than reflexive tax increases is the 1000 pound gorilla - spending. What are our priorities and what is spending that can and should be limited if not completely eliminated ? How much would this save the Government?

I have not seen any one even talk of a comparative study between reducing spending and increasing taxes - what about the Medicare benefits expansion that Bush signed into law four years back ?- this needs to be repealed. What about the larded farm subsidies - there was a 300 million monster bill they passed five months back.

Right now, the situation looks bleak and if these morons in Congress dont do a thing by this week, the discussion on capital gains would be rendered moot.

2.”From what I have gathered in my reading, Shias and Sunnis co-exist in the presence of overwhelming force. Without that force, be it Saddam, or otherwise, chaos and bloodletting ensue until divisions of bodies separate the two and some brutal force restores order.”

Thank you for prefacing your comments with “from what I have gathered in my reading” - i dont want get into a diatribe on the reporting in the MSM about the relationship between these two communities- that would be a long conversation in itself.I dont know how many other sources that you relied on other than the MSM.

The best analogy that i can come up with is the relationship between Catholics and Protestants - it has been tense, some times very bloody, idealogical - and yet it has progressed to a state where both these sects have co-existed with out being at each others throats.

I hope you dont confuse the extremists in Sunni and Shia societies with their entire communities themselves. Where is that great protector of Shias Al-Sadr now ? Some where in Iran. AQI has been defeated by the Sunnis.

We will agree to disagree on the reasons for surge’s success or the Sunni/Shia dynamic. I for one am completely thrilled by the progress that the Iraqis have made. This was supposed to be impossible.

3.”Here’s my problem. I don’t know what it would mean to “Win” in Iraq. How do you define victory? We’ll spend 3 TRILLION dollars for this thing in the end. Thousands and thousands of Americans are dead, maimed, or mentally damaged forever. We know we were lied into this war. When will it be possible to say we’ve won? Saddam is gone. Have we won? There is a fledgling pseudo-democracy. Have we won? Oil is being pumped a little faster into the commodity market. Have we won? Seriously… what does it mean to win in Iraq? I have no idea.”

These were the exact questions i had in mind back in 2004 when i backed Kerry against Bush.

“We know we were lied into the war”
This would take a long long argument - i am not really up for it. But i wont blame you for having this position. I has the EXACT position four years back.

I will just end by saying what victory means - if the US succeeds in bringing continued stability over the next 5 years and Iraq transitions into a peaceful democracy, the sacrifices made by your country’s soldiers would be WORTH every ounce of blood.

Democracies are very difficult and messy to arrive at. I am speaking from an Indian perspective here - in 1947, when India became free, NO ONE gave us a chance to remain a democracy. Heck, there were times when we doubted this ourselves. But we persevered. against some really huge odds. People in India never lost faith in the idea of democracy itself - after a millenia of being occupied by Islamic and British empires.

For the Iraqis who have been delivered from the brutal tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I hope that they never forget this - their freedom now for all its accompanying tragedies is some thing they can build on. It is in their hands, ultimately.

US occupation of Iraq is most defintely not going to be infinite. It CANT BE. But at the same time, i see signs that the Iraqis are starting to take things into their own hands.

So this is what i can tell you, a war weary anguished American who asks the question ” why have we lost thousands of lives, maimed thousands more when we dont even know what victory is” ?
A moderate and fledgling Arab democracy in the heart of the Arab world won through the sacrifce of Americans and Iraqis (lets not forget how many Iraqis have died ) is some thing to feel immensely proud about.

The American military is something to be really proud of - i am not saying this as some form of consolation to compensate for the terrible mismanagement of the war. They have fought some insormountable odds and have given Iraq hope for the future.

Hope and Change is some thing Iraqis love too .

“Accroding to you his proposal is for a 20% rate – i will take you at your word. That would be increase of 6%. Who wants to INCREASE the capital gains tax in an economy that Obama has been claiming is fundamentally weak? And this debate was in April.”

You can take my word for it, but all I can do is take his word for it. That is the number that is literally written in his tax policy. Again, whether or not he holds to that promise is another thing entirely. Incidentally, with the current state of affairs, it might be a long while before the capital gains tax really means a whole lot to anyone.

“I dont care what your political affiliation is but please explain to me how exactly a capital gains tax rate increase make sense?”

Wars don’t pay for themselves man. The money’s got to come from somewhere. Well… unless you control the printing press. Then deficits don’t matter, right? That’s working out really well for us.

“As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ‘surge’ has been successful.”

“Your ignorance on Iraq is ASTOUNDING.”

Meh. I read a lot.

“The surge originated in the Anbar province – which is a Sunni dominated province. The Sunni tribes were fed up with the barbaric nature of AQI and decided to fight back. American troops backed up the Sunni’s in their fight. AQI was routed. This has NOTHING to do with ethnic cleansing.”

Of course it had nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. As you said, it was a Sunni dominated province. There weren’t a whole lot of Shia to cleanse.

” I am not saying that this cleansing did not happen – it did happen after the Samarrah mosque bombing in early 2006.”

Perhaps you’re forgetting about other parts of the country. Namely Baghdad. Baghdad was dissected, piece by entrails covered piece until what was left were ethnically cleansed neighborhoods. The U.S. basically looked the other way until the neighborhoods were ‘purified’. When that was over, patrols were a lot smoother.

“You cannot “pay off” to get peace.”

Agreed. But you can pay off to get people to stop shooting at you and blowing you up temporarily.

“Sunni’s volunteered to stand guard for their communities against AQI. Yes the US is compensating them for their service – but you make it sound as though they are mercenaries who will readily jump ship if AQI pays them more.”

Right. The US is paying them to both kill AQI and to stop blowing up our soldiers. Obviously money well spent. The Surge wasn’t just a surge in troop levels. It was a surge in cash as well.

“Sunni tribes rejected Sunni AQI - and fought them tooth and nail by siding with what was earlier perceived as a Christian Crusading Army. And that too after the horros of Abu Ghraib . You dont seem to have ANY appreciation for the significance of what has happened here.”

Oh no, I do appreciate that the Sunni’s hate AQI. I think that’s awesome. I don’t really think the Sunnis hate them because they fight the US, which the Sunnis were doing until we started giving them money. No, they hate AQI because AQI was blowing up Sunnis while trying to blow up Americans, and not caring. So, with AQI blowing up Sunnis AND Americans, Sunnis were understandably pissed off. Mostly about the Sunni part though.

“In the month of May – Chicago had more homicide victims than terror related Victims in Iraq. That is a stunning piece of statistic in a country that supposedly already “lost”.”

I completely, 100% agree with you. Chicago’s homicide rate is horrible and embarrassing.

“I dont know of any one who will defend the post war planning of this Administration. I share your anguish on the innocent lives that were lost here and that which could have been avoided.”

I love it when we agree.

“But if you are going to dwell on the past, what do you do about the present and the future ? Thankfully, the administration changed its strategy with the surge and backed the military at a time when every one was declaring the war lost.”

Here’s my problem. I don’t know what it would mean to “Win” in Iraq. How do you define victory? We’ll spend 3 TRILLION dollars for this thing in the end. Thousands and thousands of Americans are dead, maimed, or mentally damaged forever. We know we were lied into this war. When will it be possible to say we’ve won? Saddam is gone. Have we won? There is a fledgling pseudo-democracy. Have we won? Oil is being pumped a little faster into the commodity market. Have we won? Seriously… what does it mean to win in Iraq? I have no idea.

“Btw, just because i am critical of Obama does not make a supporter of the initial war strategy – i hope you dont make that assumption.”

I did, and I apologize.

“My major GRIPE with Obama is how he tries to pass of his shallow knowledge of the Shia/Sunni history AS some deep thought in a country which knows VERY LITTLE about the Islamic faith and Islamic history. And how he uses it to show his “judgement”. That is a patently laughable claim and insults the intelligence of people who actually KNOW Islamic history and its religion – people like me who come from a country that has 150 million Muslims.”

Ok.

“I can also see that you have a condescending attitude to the fact that Shias and Sunnis have co-existed in Iraq for a long,long time. You have a simplistic notion that ethnic cleansing contributed to it.”

From what I have gathered in my reading, Shias and Sunnis co-exist in the presence of overwhelming force. Without that force, be it Saddam, or otherwise, chaos and bloodletting ensue until divisions of bodies separate the two and some brutal force restores order. Now, I do agree that the chaos eventually leads to co-existence, but I don’t agree that the ethnic cleansing is the best path to it. Baghdad is a perfect example.

“If that is indeed the case, what sense does it make for the minority Sunnis to join the Shias in Government ? Isnt it strange that the two tribes who according to you have “cleansed” and killed each other are partners in a Government ?”

It makes perfect sense because while the Sunnis are the minority, it’s not like they are powerless. They want a piece of the pie too, so are willing to cooperate.

“Please DONT paint a broad brush on a people whom you know very little about. You wouldnt like if some foreigners made some racist remarks about African Americans being lazy because they figured that a few of them lived on welfare, would you ?”

Come on. Foreigners make remarks constantly about Americans of all walks. That’s a distraction. I’ve said nothing like that about Sunnis and Shia. I’m not using a broad brush here. I’m relating what I’ve observed via research regarding the situation past and present in Iraq.

I hope that one day a wonderful democracy emerges in that country and they stop killing and blowing stuff up. However, even if that does happen, I don’t think it will ever be worth the price in money and lives we Americans have paid to make it happen. That is, of course, my opinion though.

http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2008/09/definitely-mayb.html

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/iraqs_latest_milestone_131215.htm

Wonder what happens when “intelligent” people read it - how could Sunnis and Shias work together on a legislation that okays provincial elections ?

Heck, they have shown more co-operation than the Democrat and Republican parties have.

And they did it without any help from “lightworkers” - you know the kind of people who will bring “post partisanship”.

Salaam Iraq.

28% - thats what i meant to say - i apologize for the mistake. That was the capital gains rate under Clinton before he reduced it to further. Charlie Gibson’s question on capital gains tax rates was answered by Obama saying that it wont be any higher than 28% - but that does not mean it would be exactly that figure.

Accroding to you his proposal is for a 20% rate - i will take you at your word. That would be increase of 6%. Who wants to INCREASE the capital gains tax in an economy that Obama has been claiming is fundamentally weak? And this debate was in April.

I dont care what your political affiliation is but please explain to me how exactly a capital gains tax rate increase make sense?

“As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ‘surge’ has been successful.”

Your ignorance on Iraq is ASTOUNDING. The surge originated in the Anbar province - which is a Sunni dominated province. The Sunni tribes were fed up with the barbaric nature of AQI and decided to fight back. American troops backed up the Sunni’s in their fight. AQI was routed. This has NOTHING to do with ethnic cleansing. I am not saying that this cleansing did not happen - it did happen after the Samarrah mosque bombing in early 2006.

You cannot “pay off” to get peace.Sunni’s volunteered to stand guard for their communities against AQI. Yes the US is compensating them for their service - but you make it sound as though they are mercenaries who will readily jump ship if AQI pays them more.

Sunni tribes rejected Sunni AQI - and fought them tooth and nail by siding with what was earlier perceived as a Christian Crusading Army. And that too after the horros of Abu Ghraib . You dont seem to have ANY appreciation for the significance of what has happened here.

In the month of May - Chicago had more homicide victims than terror related Victims in Iraq. That is a stunning piece of statistic in a country that supposedly already “lost”.

“I’m not saying that the Administration wasn’t smart enough to understand what would happen. I’m just saying that it makes me upset that they didn’t care. Their post war planning was literally non existent. Had it been otherwise thousands of people wouldn’t have murdered each other.”
I dont know of any one who will defend the post war planning of this Administration. I share your anguish on the innocent lives that were lost here and that which could have been avoided.

But if you are going to dwell on the past, what do you do about the present and the future ? Thankfully, the administration changed its strategy with the surge and backed the military at a time when every one was declaring the war lost.

Btw, just because i am critical of Obama does not make a supporter of the initial war strategy - i hope you dont make that assumption.

My major GRIPE with Obama is how he tries to pass of his shallow knowledge of the Shia/Sunni history AS some deep thought in a country which knows VERY LITTLE about the Islamic faith and Islamic history. And how he uses it to show his “judgement”. That is a patently laughable claim and insults the intelligence of people who actually KNOW Islamic history and its religion - people like me who come from a country that has 150 million Muslims.

I can also see that you have a condescending attitude to the fact that Shias and Sunnis have co-existed in Iraq for a long,long time. You have a simplistic notion that ethnic cleansing contributed to it.

If that is indeed the case, what sense does it make for the minority Sunnis to join the Shias in Government ? Isnt it strange that the two tribes who according to you have “cleansed” and killed each other are partners in a Government ?

Please DONT paint a broad brush on a people whom you know very little about. You wouldnt like if some foreigners made some racist remarks about African Americans being lazy because they figured that a few of them lived on welfare, would you ?

First, I do not support Obama. You putting words in my mouth is annoying as fuck. I am currently undecided. I am not registered with any political party, nor will I ever be. Which is one of the reasons I read this site. I like to read what both sides are talking about. I wanted McCain in 2000, this year, I’m having doubts.

My claims about Obama’s 20% capital gains tax come directly from his written tax proposal. That is one of his campaign promises. Whether or not I believe it, is another matter. Your 38% claim though, is so unbelievably ridiculously absurd that I can’t even formulate a response to it. 38%? Nonsense.

As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ’surge’ has been successful.

They have drawn their turf lines and slaughtered their way to neutrality. Combine that with the US literally paying cash to former Sunni insurgents to help them kill other insurgents, and you get Surge success. Just don’t go into the wrong neighborhood or you might get a power drill shoved into your heart and have your head hacked off with a small dull knife. Yay, victory! Yay coexistence!

I’m not saying that the Administration wasn’t smart enough to understand what would happen. I’m just saying that it makes me upset that they didn’t care. Their post war planning was literally non existent. Had it been otherwise thousands of people wouldn’t have murdered each other.

Chuck, I CONCEDE - wow, I still cannot get past that.Wait a minute, did you just say that you lived in Chicago your entire life and think that Obama is .. what is that.. “agent of change”.I Give Up. You win, Chuck.

Your claims that Obama will have the capital gains tax at 20% is laughable - please go back to the Philadelphia debate where Charles Gibson SCHOOLED him on this issue - the tax will be atleast 38% -HIGHER than Bill Clinton.

There is one thing that i would like to clarify before we end our tete-a-tete.

You never really understood my questions about Obama’s boast about knowing Shia/Sunni differences, did you ? It was not prove that he was some “secret” Muslim. I dont care what his religion is.

He used this in the context of explaining Iraq and why he thought that it was a HUGE mistake to enter into a war - his contention was that we were trying to bring democracy to a region (not a country) that was impossible to ever become a democratic country - after all its two main sects are at each others throats ! If only there was a US President who knew how Sunnis and Shias would not get along, we would not be in this war.

That my friend is what ticks me off - Sunnis and Shias have co-existed with each other for hundreds of years in Baghdad INSPITE of their rivalry. Modern day Iraqis are among the MOST modern Muslims - they inter marry, observe each other’s religious festivals. They do not even ask for religious denomination some times because they feel its not a cultured thing to do.

Obama’s shallow knowledge of the Islamic denominations was PARADED around as some deep source of knowledge about a religion 95% of Americans HAVE NO CLUE about.

Coming from India, and living a country whose Muslim population is half the US population and having heard tales about how Hindus and Muslims could never co-exist, I found myself mildly amused. The country that was specifically created to “protect” the Muslims (Pakistan) is now the biggest source of terrorism concern in the world.

OTOH, the country that was supposed to have the Hindu’s DOMINATE the Muslims has already had 2 Muslim Presidents and a Muslim businessman who is the RICHEST Indian.Not bad, huh?

Any wisecrack who does not know the first thing about India can crow loudly about how Hindus and Muslims have had a contentious relationship and CAN never get along- they would have no idea of the dynamic that exists in modern day India. Or how for all their troubles, they exist more peacefully than ANY ONE gave them a chance.

Today Shias and Sunnis are more united than ANYONE ever thought they could be. Heck, Joe Biden WANTED to partition Iraq into three regions with a weak federal Govt. He did not think Iraq was/could be ONE nation. Barack Obama essentially agreed with that. Hence his repeated assertions that 4000+ lives HAVE BEEN LOST - as far as he is concerned these sacrifices went towards creating democracy in a country that WAS NOT A COUNTRY.

Today after 18 months of the surge and the MOST sustained period of peace, where the Sunni’s have joined Shia Government ( WHO”D HAVE THUNK THAT ?), what does Barack Obama have to say about Iraq? Does he think that Shias and Sunnis can be one people in one nation ?

His entire candidacy is based on a negative answer to that question and how he alone HAS THE GREAT JUDGEMENT to have warned about going into a “dumb war”.

Chuck Tucson, meet your INTELLIGENT Harvard graduate President who made a spot decision on Iraq without understanding or knowing any specific details about that country. Iraq is the reason he beat Hillary and is in a position to be the next POTUS.

People deserve the leadership they get - in Obama’s case, it could not be any truer. For not bothering to know who this person is, you deserve an extreme Marxist like him.

“His core is about advancing the left agenda. ”

Um.. yeah. And John McCain’s core is about advancing the right agenda. The left fights for left stuff, the right fights for right stuff. The Democrats think they’re awesome. The Republicans think they’re awesome.

I’m just trying to figure out who I think is awesome.

“Are you saying that he worked in the community for almost 15 years in order to get into their good graces so he could get elected? That demonstrates a great deal of forethought and planning on his part, you know, if he actually did that.”

Obama was a leftwing community activist. He worked with ACORN and other groups. He worked with Ayers on the $100 million Annenberg challenge grant that wasted millions on infused leftist ideology into the schools. His core is about advancing the left agenda. If being in a Black Liberation Theology church that just happens to preach black panther style worldviews and calls it Christian, so be it. All for The Cause. (And the cause is more Marx than Jesus, to play on words by jean francois ravel.)

It gets worse. American Prowler reported: “…CBS New anchor Katie Couric ordered staff to drop all references to “Governor” or “Gov.” from her interview with Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.”
And “Producers and editorial staff at both NBC and ABC report that fellow staffers have openly ridiculed Palin, her professional and personal background and her family during production meetings, in the editing bays during video editing for nightly news stories, and while covering Palin at political events….”

This is journalistic malpractice, with a clear intention and agenda of diminishing Governor Sarah Palin that apparently has worked.

Our media has all the credibility of the USSR’s Pravda.

Deal. You can formulate your own questions and I am not a Democrat. Got it.

“I live in Chicago – i ve been here for the last three years. I have had a chance to look at local politics here and who its players are. And how it basically works.”

That great. I’ve lived in Chicago my entire life. I too follow local politics.

“You say that you didnt see much in the realm of policy – here’s my opinion on policy – any wonk can come up with any number of policies. What matters is how the candidate approaches an issue – what are his/her thoughts and ideas – and more importantly, what would he/she do as an executive?”

That’s awesome. Policy, and all that other stuff you just said matters to me too.

“Lots of did you beat your wife today logical fallacy questions in there though. Well played.”

“Actually, i am not “playing” – these are questions that I would like a response from Barack Obama.
Also if you cannot point out, what the “fallacies” are and demonstrate how exactly they are fallacious, you show yourself to be uninterested in debate. I can call you remarks stupid – there, i just said it. If i dont say why they sound stupid, I am not adding any thing to the debate.”

Really? Does it really matter how he knows about Muslim denominations? Does it matter if he took a religious studies class in college, or if he did research on the web? Why is this relevant to anything? OR, are you possibly in some remote way trying to subtly suggest that he’s had some sort of Muslim schooling that we don’t already know about? Framing. It’s called a Loaded Question logical fallacy. Again, well done.

“That’s exactly what you are doing – passing over the questions, without trying to deal with them.”

Meh. Some of them I care about, Some I don’t.

“Dont worry, you have nt done anything the MSM has already done – give Barack Obama a pass.”

Of course. It’s the MSM’s fault. Both sides cry and whine about the MSM. Everyone gets a pass.

“I watched him on O’Reilly. Several of these questions were presented and answered there. I’m not saying I was satisfied with the answers, but your smug innuendo actually makes me not care.”

“Really? So O’Reilly is the show that i have to watch to get these “answers” is it ?”

Wow, it actually sounds like you’re attacking me because I pointed out that Obama was presented with questions on national television that you said you’d like to see him get asked. I suppose you could just read the transcript.

“I dont care whether you care or not or if you think I am smug or not. Bill O Reilly does not know a damned thing about Obama – and yeah, when did he become the authority on Presidential candidates any ways?

I said none of that. I just said he was on O’Reilly, who is part of the MSM. O’Reilly asked him similar questions to several of those on your list. Obama answered them. Your views on his answers are your views, but saying the questions have never been asked in a national spotlight is invalid.

– Here’s what I dont care about- whether he is Christian, Muslim or anything else – there is no religious test.

No, not according to the constitution. But you know what I meant. Wait, no, maybe you don’t. What I meant was that there are great deals of people who say that he’s Muslim as a scare tactic. He is not Muslim.

“What exactly makes you think he is intelligent ? Because he sounds that way ?”

No, because he graduated from Harvard Law School, was president of the Harvard Law Review, Served as a Civil Rights Attorney, Spent 12 years as a Constitutional Law Professor, Spent years as a state senator, then went on to become a United States Senator serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran’s Affairs committees.

Usually people who aren’t at least somewhat intelligent don’t make it that far.

“How many intelligent people have the following “policy positions” on an issue like Iran…”

I will not accept out of context one liner “policy positions” as proof that he is not intelligent. Sorry.

“That’s five incoherent babbles that even a stupid person would not be able to come up with !”

Again, that’s five out of context pseudo quotes used prove that he’s stupid. Again, I don’t think he’s stupid. Furthermore, I’d be amazed if you can find any politician ever who’s said anything different to AIPAC.

“This is what your intelligent candidate had to say about Russia’s invasion of Georgia”

“Obama calls for UN Security Council Resolution on Georgia”. Heh ! Russia has a veto which your candidate does not either seem to know or or understand. The only resolution in which UNSC members are required to abstain are in Chapter 6 of the UN mandate – these resolutions end up with nothing more than “strong condemnations” of aggressive action by a nation state. Toothless to do a damned thing.

You are vastly over generalizing the situation, both regarding Georgia and what it means to call for a Security Council resolution.

“This is what your intelligent candidate sees as a way to “fix” Social Security. Raise taxes on individuals who earn more than 200K a year and families that earn more than 250K per year.”

I don’t believe the tax plan is designed specifically to “fix” social security. Which, arguably is only broken in the regard that it’s not a protected fund. Protected from governmental borrowing, that is.

“He has not mentioned what this exact tax rate would be – and more importantly he thinks that high income earners would take this tax increase lying down ! No chance of passing this cost on to people who depend on their services ? What exactly do you think employers do right now? Do you think they pay their 6.2% share ? They reduce this amount from the employee’s annual salary and then show as though they “pay their share”.”

Thanks for the business lesson.

“Your intelligent candidate thinks that raising the capital gains tax is needed because… because.. its FAIR ! We call this re-distributionist Marxism – not intelligence. People suffer losses in the trading markets too – do they get compensated for that ? Nope – but your intelligent candidate thinks that its all right to jack up capital gains rate. Gee, would nt this spur investments in this country?”

Bah. Obama will create a new top capital gains rate of 20 percent. Obama’s 20% rate is equal is the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate that President Bush proposed in 2001. It is almost a third lower than the rate that President Reagan signed into law in 1986. Far from the supposed Marxism you’re claiming.

“I can take each and every position of this “intelligent candidate” and tear it down. I dont have the energy or the time for it.”

That’s awesome.

“Making assumptions about what I am implying makes you an ass. Where was it that I implied that he is a terrorist?”

Another logical fallacy. I didnt say that you implied that he was a terrorist. What I said was:

“Implying that Senator Obama is a terrorist sympathizing closet Muslim with radical Christian friends, all of whom hate America, is fucking stupid…”

“His association with Jeremiah Wright speaks for itself”

Really? Does it? Dare I apply that flawed logic to all politicians? I wouldn’t even be able to go to the polling place on Election Day. What would be the point?

“– this is a race hustler to the core.”

Agreed. Wright has some serious issues.

“Obama who was not a Christian until he came to Chicago, used Wright to get into the good graces of the black community. Once Wright called him out as nothing more than a politician he threw him under the bus.”

Are you saying that he worked in the community for almost 15 years in order to get into their good graces so he could get elected? That demonstrates a great deal of forethought and planning on his part, you know, if he actually did that.

“A mere two months after giving his “race speech” ( how is that national conversation on race going by the way?) where he defended Wright, he resigns from his church !!”

I don’t see how your race speech sarcasm relates to a dispute between him and Wright.

How much more transparent does it need to be? If your heart bleeds at the thought that Obama is nothing more than a cynical politician who has used his whole “Christian faith” as nothing more than political tool, and I point this out, why blame me ?

I’m not blaming you. He’s a politician. That’s what they do. 80 million evangelicals have been used as political tools for the past eight years. I don’t deride the politicians for doing this; I deride the people for being stupid enough to believe it.

“What ever makes people like you think that an Obama critic who does not fawn over him has an “agenda” ? Yes, its possible to criticize him without having any “agenda”.

Agreed. It’s your method of criticizing that seems to be not exactly agenda neutral.

“I have been observing Obama for a long time and have much deeper knowledge about him and his background and what character he is made of than you do. I dont need to agree with you – i have more command of the fundamental facts about him – you DONT.”

That’s great man, that’s really awesome of you.

“Why dont you try a new approach ? Either provide an effective rebuttal of the issues i raised – or agree that you dont have a clue.”

I concede. Congratulations, you win. I don’t have a clue.