You call me stupid for quoting the Declaration of Independence? Christ on a crutch man. Our country was formed and a declaration of independence was created. Our differences with other nations…put there on paper. Declaring who we are…what we are..what we will be. The line I quoted is everyones bread and butter. All men are created equal. Our inalienable rights. Your belief in that our declaration having no force of law and should therefore be ignored is, in my opinion, ignorant. I didn’t quote that line in order for you to think that the “Declaration of Independence” police should be created…but in order to distinguish our country. Our differences with others…our beliefs…that should be protected!

You will have no right, no right whatsoever when your liberties are taken away, stripped away slowly, little by little. You will wake up one day and wonder where it all went, when did it happen…what could you have done. It happened when you said you didn’t care that much if the government didn’t protect your civil liberties in order to feel a little safe.

That, sir, is being like a sheep. Do you feel safe in your pen..here, let me put up one more board…it won’t block out all the light. Yet. Yes, we’ll keep you safe…shhhh….shhhhh. No more wolves…here…one more board.

I love how when someone questions you…wants clarification from you, all you can do is call them stupid. Don’t answer the question at all. Just ignore it and call the poster names. Bravo sir. Bravo. Because I chose to write about torture you feel like I’m ignoring other civil liberties. Should I limit myself to the free speech for your pleasure? You don’t want to discuss the “trickiness” of due process apparently.

So I want to know what you meant by when you wrote:
“I did not support some of what President Bush initiated as security measures these last 8 years but neither am I a civil liberties absolutist who some suspect would be enormously satisfied if the government bent over backward to obey Constitutional protections to the letter and the spirit of the law while the US suffered a horrific attack.”

What security measures in regard to civil liberties did you not support? If not in reference to the Military Commissions Act, what were you referring to? I can see you being bitter about his “White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives”…but that first amendment..umm…violation I guess…wouldn’t make you safer from a horrific attack so you couldn’t have been speaking of that one. I can see unreasonable searches and seizures probably helping against attacks. Is that what you are referring to?

I’m guessing here now…so you tell me…what civil liberties are you OK with not being guarded/protected by the government in order to feel safer (in some cases probably even be safer - but you never know…that is not a guarantee).

Oh, and you’re wrong about civil liberties Mr. M. Your two choices mentioned above are (1) give up liberties and stave off an attack or (2) preserve liberties and suffer bombings. What about the far more likely option — (3) give up liberties and STILL get bombed?
For all the talk on this site about respect for history, and the intent of our forefathers, selling out the Great Writ with absolutely no demonstrable payoff is (or should be) inconcievable for Conservatives. Forget your technicalities about the prisoners may not be covered by our legal code (and you’re wrong on that too) . . . its what makes us the best humans on the planet, that we base our entire existence, our society, our identity at least in some small part on morality, on recognizing that some things are malem in se, that there is such things as “right” and “wrong”. Sell that, especially for nothing demonstrable, and we’re just pigs … which is fine and dandy but that means you can stop that inspirational oratory anytime.

… Man, I’ve been waiting to snark off at you for weeks. Thank you. I needed that after work tonight.

I am wondering at where you draw the line sir. Murder/rape/torture? It seems to me that you are ok with civil liberties being ignored when times are rough…when there is an assumption that you were protected because some information was given via torture.

What if it were an American domestic terrorist being tortured? You would be ok with that since the information they gave would save American lives. Correct? How about if it were a supposed American domestic terrorist? Maybe they are or maybe there aren’t? Only torture would tell. Are you saying you would be OK with it if it ended up being a domestic terrorist…but not OK with it if it ended up being an innocent? I am sorry but you can not have it both ways. All I ask is where you draw the line. At what point would you stand up and say “NO!” to someone being tortured? When it is only an American who is just suspected of being a terrorist? Or only when it is someone you know? A friend, a family member, a member of your community? And if you are willing to stand up and say “NO!” for a friend how come not your fellow man? Be it someone from Canada, someone from Mexico, someone from France, or gasp, dare I say it, someone from Iraq or Afghanistan?

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

That statement does not say anything about just being an American.

“…that you were protected because some information was given via torture.”

I have come out in a half dozen posts on this site against torture under any circumstances. And if you think those are the only civil liberties questions that have arisen in the last 8 years, you are a dunce.

You further the case for you being stupid by quoting the Declaration of Independence - a document that has no force of law whatsoever. Using your (il)logic, German and Japanese POW’s should have been tried in our courts like pickpockets. Holy Jesus! Even the Geneva Convention doesn’t mandate that.

Learn the issues please before commenting on this site.

ed.

And my guess is that within a few years you will be wishing for the security and safety he has provided us with for the last 7 years. I pray I am wrong.

I believe in our constitution. I do not believe that our constituion is perfect though. I agree that sometimes changes need to be made - I support that process wholeheartedly. Change is needed, else you stagnate (plus human beings are not perfect - past mistakes need to be fixed as they are found). As it is though, I believe that our constitution is worth fighting for - worth protecting for me and my own. I believe that my civil liberties are worth fighting for. I believe my fellow man’s civil liberties are worth fighting for as well. How can I covet something and not understand when my neighbor covets the same thing? Your premise of dangerous times call for dangerous measures is a scary thought. You can try and deny it but that is your message - or at least that is what I believe you are saying anyways. Maybe we should just go drop nuclear bombs on everyone not American? After all, their liberties do not matter. Just Americans. No more 9/11s.

Yes, I believe that we as a country are at war. Unfortunately I believe we are in the wrong war - or rather, fought the right war in the wrong way for the wrong reasons. There was nothing I could do about that except cast my vote on election day (and past election days) as I have been doing. Unfortunately (politically anyways) I live in Texas. A non-republican vote hardly counts here. One change I would like is the abandonment of the electoral college. The reasons it exists are no longer valid.

I did not cast a Democratic party ballot. Mine was all over, however, I did vote for Obama. I felt he was a better choice than McCain. Unfortunately, who I wanted for president was not on the ballot. I do not believe Obama can fix everything…if people believe that they will be disappointed. I did and still do believe that he can help more than McCain could have helped. I do wish Republicans would stop saying he better stop the sun in the sky else he fails as a president. I believe the right has idolized him almost…calling him the “messiah” and “the One” even though they were/are trying to tear him down by making him seem as if he believes he is Christ reborn. Please try another attack. That one is getting friggen old. It makes me smile a bit whenever I think of you all who have called him that…and now are stuck with him as president (well, president-elect anyways). Must stick in the back of the throat a bit.

It is interesting that the right wants him to fail. It is almost like they need him to fail - in order to justify all of their claims about him. Just like the left probably would have wanted McCain to fail to justify their claims. A terrible, vicious circle. If McCain had won I would have wanted him to succeed. With everything! National security…economy! I would still like to retire at some point in my life! Wanting/wishing/praying for someone (your future President even) to fail is stupid. I never wished for George W. Bush to fail. I never wished for Bill Clinton to fail. I never wished for George Bush to fail (I don’t even mind that he did eventually tax me). I never wished for Ronald Reagon to fail. You get the point.

@Gayle Miller:
Why would you quote the word rule? I’m surprised you refrained yourself from calling him “The One” or “Messiah”…or “Barack Hussein Obama”, because, you know..you always refer to him by his full name. I really can’t believe you think he is our punishment from some god because Democrats spoke bad about George Walker Bush during his presidency. That’s just creepy. Maybe George Walker Bush was America’s punishment for Republicans talking bad about Clinton? Hmmm????? Of course not though…your god would never back a Democrat, huh?

“Maybe when it is only non-Americans? They are not American so they don’t deserve their own liberties.”

Your intimation of racism guiding my thoughts is typical - can’t argue the merits so smear someone. And if you are talking about “non-Americans” who get caught in this country, I have made my feelings known numerous times on this site regarding my opposition to many of the Administration’s detention policies.

But non-Americans caught outside of America? You’re kidding right?

ed.

All presidents do the “stroke of the pen” thing the first thing they do when they take office. No biggie.

ed