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	<title>Comments on: THE MYSTERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS</title>
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	<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/</link>
	<description>Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2026 09:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: RWA</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762339</link>
		<dc:creator>RWA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762339</guid>
		<description>Lasalle's piece was unfortunately a piece of twaddle that isn't saying anything that isn't old and either debunked or properly dismissed. The strong anthropic principle is just a philosophical exercise which doesn't have much of anything to actually contribute to scientific understanding (rather like intelligent design).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lasalle&#8217;s piece was unfortunately a piece of twaddle that isn&#8217;t saying anything that isn&#8217;t old and either debunked or properly dismissed. The strong anthropic principle is just a philosophical exercise which doesn&#8217;t have much of anything to actually contribute to scientific understanding (rather like intelligent design).</p>
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		<title>By: lenf</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762292</link>
		<dc:creator>lenf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762292</guid>
		<description>Consciousness is the confluence of perception and memory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consciousness is the confluence of perception and memory.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggie's Farm</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762291</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie's Farm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 10:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762291</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thursday morning links...&lt;/strong&gt;

Taxes: You're next. But first, drowning the rich
NYT: Why we must ration medical care
Related, remind me: What problem is a health care bill supposed to be solving?
Thinking about consciousness. Rick Moran...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thursday morning links&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Taxes: You&#8217;re next. But first, drowning the rich<br />
NYT: Why we must ration medical care<br />
Related, remind me: What problem is a health care bill supposed to be solving?<br />
Thinking about consciousness. Rick Moran&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mannning</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762287</link>
		<dc:creator>mannning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762287</guid>
		<description>The Anthropic Principle as a concept has been around since Biblical times: the account in Genesis being a prime example of it in non-scientific terms. Of late, there has been an enormous expansion of scientific facts that tend to support the idea of a man-centered universe. Over 39 physical laws and 26 physical constants have been cited as having a very narrow range of values; if any one of them was outside of the range, life as we know it would not be viable.

This has led to the more general idea of Intelligent Design and an Intelligent Designer as the origin and basis for the construction and evolution of the universe, life and man from the Big Bang till now. This concept is easily assimilated by many religions that believe in a God as the creator, but is anathema to the scientific community that is principally atheistic in outlook.

The scientific community has gone so far as to propose a Multiverse in order to avoid the possibility of an Intelligent Designer, thus immensely complicating cosmology. Instead of “God did it” we have a Multiverse within which somehow our particular universe was “selected” by a “mysterious selector” because of its life supporting properties over the infinite number of universes or pocket universes that would not support life. So it appears that we have traded off a Mysterious Designer for a Mysterious Selector, plus enormous difficulties, if not impossibilities, in establishing the bone fides of the Multiverse. Ockham would be aghast.

The many objections to God as the Prime Mover or Architect of the Universe include the memes: “who designed the designer”; and “how can something be created out of nothing (ex nihilo).”

Then, too, the old accusations of “how can a perfect entity create such an imperfect world; and “how can an omnipotent and omniscient entity exist logically?” are brought out of the kit bag to confound the situation once more.

The answer may well be simply: “we do not know how or why God has done what He has done and is doing, and we most likely do not have the mental capacity to understand Him fully.” This, despite the fact as we know it that even God must conform to certain physical rules (or so we believe).

We come then to the questions of how and why man developed consciousness. Is consciousness a logical outgrowth of man’s existence, or was it put there originally by God very early on? Why, then, is man the only species that exhibits a rather full blown consciousness, insofar as we know (can it become even greater in some sense?)?

In the recorded history of man, which covers perhaps 100 centuries, there is no evidence that his capacity to think cogently has grown measurably, while, of course, his knowledge of the world has expanded tremendously. Is consciousness a fluke, or an accident of cosmic proportions? Can we create consciousness in the laboratory? Some powerful thinkers believe it is possible, and are working to that end right now.

Several scientists believe that the mere aggregation of a massive number of software constructs will eventually result in conscious thought. It would seem, however, that piling layer upon layer of logic onto a program or programs would merely result in a tortuous trail of logical steps leading to some end or another, and no spark of consciousness.

In fact, it is quite acceptable indeed for scientists to explore the true makeup of the universe, and to postulate all the universes they want, all the Branes they need and all the brains they can fabricate. They will likely wander in those sets of constructs essentially forever, however. The morass of String Theory/Superstring Theory/M-Theory is one example. Even indirect proofs of the existence of multiple universes have been and will likely continue to be found wanting in the end. Consciousness in the lab will be a Holy Grail, too, for a long, long time. One must question the testability of these ideas.

It appears, then, that we will have to believe either in a God who architected the universe and conscious man or in a Mysterious Selector, multiple universes, and some fluke of nature resulting in consciousness that can never be fully understood.

Put your faith as and where you like it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Anthropic Principle as a concept has been around since Biblical times: the account in Genesis being a prime example of it in non-scientific terms. Of late, there has been an enormous expansion of scientific facts that tend to support the idea of a man-centered universe. Over 39 physical laws and 26 physical constants have been cited as having a very narrow range of values; if any one of them was outside of the range, life as we know it would not be viable.</p>
<p>This has led to the more general idea of Intelligent Design and an Intelligent Designer as the origin and basis for the construction and evolution of the universe, life and man from the Big Bang till now. This concept is easily assimilated by many religions that believe in a God as the creator, but is anathema to the scientific community that is principally atheistic in outlook.</p>
<p>The scientific community has gone so far as to propose a Multiverse in order to avoid the possibility of an Intelligent Designer, thus immensely complicating cosmology. Instead of “God did it” we have a Multiverse within which somehow our particular universe was “selected” by a “mysterious selector” because of its life supporting properties over the infinite number of universes or pocket universes that would not support life. So it appears that we have traded off a Mysterious Designer for a Mysterious Selector, plus enormous difficulties, if not impossibilities, in establishing the bone fides of the Multiverse. Ockham would be aghast.</p>
<p>The many objections to God as the Prime Mover or Architect of the Universe include the memes: “who designed the designer”; and “how can something be created out of nothing (ex nihilo).”</p>
<p>Then, too, the old accusations of “how can a perfect entity create such an imperfect world; and “how can an omnipotent and omniscient entity exist logically?” are brought out of the kit bag to confound the situation once more.</p>
<p>The answer may well be simply: “we do not know how or why God has done what He has done and is doing, and we most likely do not have the mental capacity to understand Him fully.” This, despite the fact as we know it that even God must conform to certain physical rules (or so we believe).</p>
<p>We come then to the questions of how and why man developed consciousness. Is consciousness a logical outgrowth of man’s existence, or was it put there originally by God very early on? Why, then, is man the only species that exhibits a rather full blown consciousness, insofar as we know (can it become even greater in some sense?)?</p>
<p>In the recorded history of man, which covers perhaps 100 centuries, there is no evidence that his capacity to think cogently has grown measurably, while, of course, his knowledge of the world has expanded tremendously. Is consciousness a fluke, or an accident of cosmic proportions? Can we create consciousness in the laboratory? Some powerful thinkers believe it is possible, and are working to that end right now.</p>
<p>Several scientists believe that the mere aggregation of a massive number of software constructs will eventually result in conscious thought. It would seem, however, that piling layer upon layer of logic onto a program or programs would merely result in a tortuous trail of logical steps leading to some end or another, and no spark of consciousness.</p>
<p>In fact, it is quite acceptable indeed for scientists to explore the true makeup of the universe, and to postulate all the universes they want, all the Branes they need and all the brains they can fabricate. They will likely wander in those sets of constructs essentially forever, however. The morass of String Theory/Superstring Theory/M-Theory is one example. Even indirect proofs of the existence of multiple universes have been and will likely continue to be found wanting in the end. Consciousness in the lab will be a Holy Grail, too, for a long, long time. One must question the testability of these ideas.</p>
<p>It appears, then, that we will have to believe either in a God who architected the universe and conscious man or in a Mysterious Selector, multiple universes, and some fluke of nature resulting in consciousness that can never be fully understood.</p>
<p>Put your faith as and where you like it!</p>
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		<title>By: Mahone Dunbar</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762272</link>
		<dc:creator>Mahone Dunbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762272</guid>
		<description>For those interested in an "exotic" take on consciousness, I'd highly reccomend "The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind," by Julian Jaynes. Though I disagree with Jayne's primary thesis (consciousness is a recent historical phenomena)the data he presents on the enigma of consciousness is well worth the read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested in an &#8220;exotic&#8221; take on consciousness, I&#8217;d highly reccomend &#8220;The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind,&#8221; by Julian Jaynes. Though I disagree with Jayne&#8217;s primary thesis (consciousness is a recent historical phenomena)the data he presents on the enigma of consciousness is well worth the read.</p>
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		<title>By: HyperIon</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762260</link>
		<dc:creator>HyperIon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762260</guid>
		<description>"Closer To Truth" is a half-hour of reflection on some aspect of "Cosmos, Consciousness, God" by Robert Lawrence Kuhn that shows on many PBS stations. It is sometimes quite interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Closer To Truth&#8221; is a half-hour of reflection on some aspect of &#8220;Cosmos, Consciousness, God&#8221; by Robert Lawrence Kuhn that shows on many PBS stations. It is sometimes quite interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: manoman</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762256</link>
		<dc:creator>manoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762256</guid>
		<description>Let me try again.  Ultimately I find fault with LaSalle/Lanza for pretending that citing some scientific improbabilities can in any way buttress a metaphysical proposition.  Pace busboy33 on science and metaphysics, ne'er the twain shall meet, nor should they.  It is more interesting, therefore, in the great scholastic tradition, to argue the implications of the metaphysical proposition so as to ascertain if it is even a worthwhile metaphysical proposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me try again.  Ultimately I find fault with LaSalle/Lanza for pretending that citing some scientific improbabilities can in any way buttress a metaphysical proposition.  Pace busboy33 on science and metaphysics, ne&#8217;er the twain shall meet, nor should they.  It is more interesting, therefore, in the great scholastic tradition, to argue the implications of the metaphysical proposition so as to ascertain if it is even a worthwhile metaphysical proposition.</p>
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		<title>By: oneuniverse</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762255</link>
		<dc:creator>oneuniverse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762255</guid>
		<description>Look, from a scientific viewpoint, Dr. Lanza's "seven principles of biocentrism" are utter nonsense.

Principle no. 3 is the key one - it's a blatant lie, from which, were it true, it might be possible to argue the other 6:

"3. The behavior of subatomic particles — indeed all particles and objects — are inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves."

No - not true - a wide-spread misunderstanding, but not what the science says. 
 
If you examine the classic experiment that demonstrated the quantum aspect of reality (it is not really a quantum "effect"), the double-slit experiment, you'll see that it has nothing to do with whether a conscious observer is present or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, from a scientific viewpoint, Dr. Lanza&#8217;s &#8220;seven principles of biocentrism&#8221; are utter nonsense.</p>
<p>Principle no. 3 is the key one - it&#8217;s a blatant lie, from which, were it true, it might be possible to argue the other 6:</p>
<p>&#8220;3. The behavior of subatomic particles — indeed all particles and objects — are inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves.&#8221;</p>
<p>No - not true - a wide-spread misunderstanding, but not what the science says. </p>
<p>If you examine the classic experiment that demonstrated the quantum aspect of reality (it is not really a quantum &#8220;effect&#8221;), the double-slit experiment, you&#8217;ll see that it has nothing to do with whether a conscious observer is present or not.</p>
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		<title>By: busboy33</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762237</link>
		<dc:creator>busboy33</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762237</guid>
		<description>Ain't metaphysics great?  The adult equivilant of babies making turd-pies:  Completely irrevelant, useless, and a pain in the ass to clean up the mess, but makes baby awfully proud of itself. 

It will always have "profound theological implications" (really, any knowledge will), but I hope the reason they ignored those implications is because "ne'er the twain shall meet" -- theology can't inform (or be informed by) knowledge.

I mean, we've known for thousands of years that people don't rise from the dead, that bodies don't turn into pillars of salt, that spiders can't seal off a cave entrance is a day, that a handful of people can't fit two of every species onto a boat and care for their needs for more than a month (polar bears must have loved a month of the MidEastern climate), etc.  We can date human history pretty conclusively back well over 8,000 years, but some people believe that the earth is 2,000 years younger than that.  All of which has had zero impact on people's faith, and rightly so.


No matter what science determines (or thinks it determines), it doesn't, and shouldn't, change what people believe.  

(goes back to smearing feces on the wall and feeling proud of himself)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ain&#8217;t metaphysics great?  The adult equivilant of babies making turd-pies:  Completely irrevelant, useless, and a pain in the ass to clean up the mess, but makes baby awfully proud of itself. </p>
<p>It will always have &#8220;profound theological implications&#8221; (really, any knowledge will), but I hope the reason they ignored those implications is because &#8220;ne&#8217;er the twain shall meet&#8221; &#8212; theology can&#8217;t inform (or be informed by) knowledge.</p>
<p>I mean, we&#8217;ve known for thousands of years that people don&#8217;t rise from the dead, that bodies don&#8217;t turn into pillars of salt, that spiders can&#8217;t seal off a cave entrance is a day, that a handful of people can&#8217;t fit two of every species onto a boat and care for their needs for more than a month (polar bears must have loved a month of the MidEastern climate), etc.  We can date human history pretty conclusively back well over 8,000 years, but some people believe that the earth is 2,000 years younger than that.  All of which has had zero impact on people&#8217;s faith, and rightly so.</p>
<p>No matter what science determines (or thinks it determines), it doesn&#8217;t, and shouldn&#8217;t, change what people believe.  </p>
<p>(goes back to smearing feces on the wall and feeling proud of himself)</p>
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		<title>By: funny man</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/07/11/the-mystery-of-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-1762230</link>
		<dc:creator>funny man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=4186#comment-1762230</guid>
		<description>My favorite philosophers was always Hume. He once stated if someone stated "I had a mysterious force lift me up (or appear) and we talked for an hour a lot of people would go along with this. However, if you stated I was walking through a forest when suddenly a bear appeared and proceeded to walk alongside with me for an hour and then just left, nobody would believe you. Now which one is more likely?

Busboy, you clearly remember your Latin better then I do mine. Always reassuring that the old Romans thought pretty much like we do today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite philosophers was always Hume. He once stated if someone stated &#8220;I had a mysterious force lift me up (or appear) and we talked for an hour a lot of people would go along with this. However, if you stated I was walking through a forest when suddenly a bear appeared and proceeded to walk alongside with me for an hour and then just left, nobody would believe you. Now which one is more likely?</p>
<p>Busboy, you clearly remember your Latin better then I do mine. Always reassuring that the old Romans thought pretty much like we do today.</p>
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