“The issue is, does the Party have to get YOUR approval for the candidates they advance?”

For those not from New York State. The GOP has less to do with democracy and more to do with control from top down.

I used to laugh whenever I’d call the NYS GOP Chairman by his first name and be castigated since he required being called “The Chairman.”

My answer to your question has always been, “Well, yes.” One person, one vote right?

I agree with everything you said . . . but I don’t understand the relevance to the current conversation.

So just everybody writes in whomever they want to vote for? That’s actually not an American concept, since we’re not a pure democracy.

You get to decide whom to cast you vote for . . . yes. But that’s different than deciding who the candidates are.

Vote for Hoffman, vote for Owens, heck, Scoza’s name is still on the ballot so vote for her if you like. You CAN’T vote for Sarah Palin. Sorry. Them’s the rules.

The issue is, does the Party have to get YOUR approval for the candidates they advance? If you cared, why wern’t you down at the Party Headquarters advocating for your favorite? If you don’t like the candidate . . . then don’t vote for them. But you understand that EVERY candidate is opposed by somebody, right? This means that there is ALWAYS someone crying foul.

Do the people have the right to follow this course of action? Yep. Absolutely. But it WILL cripple or destroy the GOP, and as Rick said the whole point of this game is to wield political power. This plan fails to accomplish that.

Please remember the simple things we were taught in elementary school.

One person, one vote.

Let me challenge you think of it in a social science kind of way:

One person, his own decision.

I can even put this in a religious context:

One person, free moral agency.

Wait, there’s more!

They all add up to one simple American concept:

I get to decide who I want to vote for. Me. Just me.

You might want to “ask the party” what to do, but I sure won’t.

Doug Hoffman is pretty happy he didn’t either at this point.

Agreed — but where is the line? State Assemblyman is far above Dogcatcher as well. It’s not National, but it’s the upper eschelon of State elections. Primary, or let the party decide? Mayor? again, far above dogcatcher, far below State Assemblyman, but the biggest post in the small pond of town politics. Primary, or let the party decide?

My point is that there is a heck of alot of grey in between National Congressman and dogcatcher. Is the NY-23 situation the final outcome over building resentment with the candidate selection process . . . or is it anger at the candidate that was selected? If the local officials could have and did select Hoffman, would you be calling for primaries (against Hoffman), or would you argue that the party is doing its job?

The argument I’m hearing against Scoza isn’t that the process is faulty, but that she is a hippie liberal socialist RINO. How she was selected doesn’t have any impact on that concern, does it? If she WAS chosen by primary, would all those calling her a disgusting travesty of the GOP support her then, or would we still be right back here, with a third party “purist” running against her?
If the complaint is the lack of a primary, running as a third party fixes that how? By pulling the people that care about primaries (allegedly) out of the GOP ranks into the Con Party ranks, there’s nobody in the GOP trying to amend the rules to allow for primaries now. That’s not changing the nomination system . . . that’s killing the GOP for a new party, “Out with the Old, In with the True!”
That’s the way it’s looking from here. I’m open to another way of looking at it . . . but I gotta say this seems pretty clear cut.

“Second, I never said Hoffman claimed he had a beef.”

True, and my bad for that.

“Scozzafava’s selection by the GOP-elite did not sit well with the people in the district.”

Respectfully, the local Republican Party officials in NY-23 hardly qualify as the “elite”, at least to me.
If I understand what you are saying, the local Republican Party members became so enraged that the Party nominated Scozzafava (although she’s been working for them for years), that they . . . all decided to join the Conservative Party and nominate someone who lives outside the District?

Really?

So the general members got together and had a meeting, and someone (just a regular Joe) said “hey, why don’t we ask that nice conservative Hoffman to run”? I find that idea stunningly hard to believe.

You claim she was chosen by the elites. Rick claims she was selected by the outside forces. I thought she got the nod from the local party officials . . . the same as every Republican candidate has for decades. It’s not the system that is the problem, or the selection process . . . it’s her. Personally.

I haven’t been able to find a single piece of information about her nomination that suggests there was ANYTHING objectionable about it, that she was installed from on-high, that the local party members gave a damn until Hoffman and Armey started making noise.

Show me something different, and I’ll change my opinion.

“Hoffman may have set himself up to run the tables with the election. That in itself tells a tale, again whether you want to acknowldge it or not.”

Check my comments @7 and 11. I acknowledge it absolutely . . . I just think it’s the worst possible tale for the GOP.

“I don’t believe anybody of sound mind (I’ll give you that caviot) is going to hang it out there, with their own money and all, unless there is good cause to do so.”

What if it was with another’s money? Like, say, some PAC?
Good cause — I agree they won’t do it without good cause. What is good cause? Righting a wrong? That’s a good cause. Gaining power and thereby enriching myself and my friends? Most politicians think that’s a pretty good cause too.
To think that members of ANY political affiliation are altruistic, honest, reliable, trustworthy, and generally all-around Boy Scouts is nonsense.
Why would they do it? Why does ANYBODY run for public office?

Think about Hoffman. Why is he running?

Because he is opposed to the candidate nomination process? Then why is he acting outside of the GOP? Whatever happens, he hasn’t changed the GOP practices . . . he’s just fought with them for power.
To present an “honest conservative” face so the people have a real choice, and not a “Washington Insider Elite”? Yeah . . . that’s why he had Dick Armey at his side during the interview with the Watertown Times . . . so he could distance himself from the Beltway.
Because he’s an “outsider”? I read his interview, watched the debate . . . he sounded like a regular old politician to me (lots of sound bites, no substance).

“I suggest to you that there would have been considerably less of a backlash had a Primary process been observed and Hoffman may not have run if there had been such a process. (No proof, just my own observations)”

Maybe. So that’s what made Malkin, Pawlenty, Limbaugh, Beck, Palin et.al jump into a local race — their outrage over the lack of a primary system in the nomination process? Then all the attacks on Dede personally, as a liberal RINO, are just purely coincidental. They would all be supporting Hoffman even if the GOP candidate was Reagan Himself . . . it’s the principle of the thing, you understand.
I just don’t buy that. This is about being “pure” conservative. It just doesn’t make sense otherwise. Why the bloody hell would all those outsiders give a damn about a local election like this, if not to burnish their “I’m more conservative than you” credentials. If they were loyal GOP members, and just have a problem with the Primary system . . . why attack Dede personally? She’s still a GOP member, like them. She has been a GOP pol for years . . . they’ve never given a damn.
This just doesn’t make sense as anything other than a purity test. The Primary issue is a cover so we can slag Dede for being a RINO. If it was about primaries, then the Scoza hatred wouldn’t be there.

And you can color me not surprised. First, I’m not trying to tell you that every single election should have a primary - but c’mon - something at the National level for Congress? I would say that is far and away above the level of dog catcher, wouldn’t you?

Second, I never said Hoffman claimed he had a beef. He never had a chance to have a beef with the system. The system chose for him and the district and therein lies the rub. Scozzafava’s selection by the GOP-elite did not sit well with the people in the district. So she got challenged, and lost, and it appears Hoffman may have set himself up to run the tables with the election. That in itself tells a tale, again whether you want to acknowldge it or not. (And from DEDE’s own actions since pulling out of the race, I would say that he has a point. But that comes in the realm of hindsight.)

And you can disagree with me all you want - I don’t believe anybody of sound mind (I’ll give you that caviot) is going to hang it out there, with their own money and all, unless there is good cause to do so. Granted, there probably are some “single conservative egomaniac out there, that’s more interested in power over the good of the party and the people.” You are always going to find people out there looking out for his own power rather than that of the people. I suggest to you that there would have been considerably less of a backlash had a Primary process been observed and Hoffman may not have run if there had been such a process. (No proof, just my own observations)

I am a Republican and have been since I registered to vote in 1992. I have a libertarian philosophy, but I do not like 3rd parties because their impact is not winning elections but driving one of the two major parties in their direction. When third parties do run they tend to hurt the Republican party more than the Dems (although that depends on what level ie 2006 MT Senate or 2000 WA Senate vs 2000 Presidential level). However, the reality is the tea party movement is real and disorganized because it is grassroots and is looking to be absorbed by a larger structure.

My guess that since the Repubs are out of power they will harness this wave and try ride it as far as it goes. I am not sure how this marriage will work out beyond 2010 but it should be sufficient to serve as a platform for big Republican comeback. Now the governing impact will be interesting. Will the fact that the Chairman of the Republican party has tied the hands of the politicians to do anything related to enttilement reform cause trouble because of the tea party to reduce govt expenditures. I do not know but we will both there to watch it.

The bigger issue is that the New York GOP is institutionally moribund, There is no reason that Republicans could not compete for any statewide office next year, and they really ought to take back three of four Congressional Districts. But the people running what’s left of the party (post-Pataki) are snooks; there are no fresh candidates; and no one wants to give money to a bunch of losers. “Tea-party” activist conservatives would do well to move in on local GOP organizations and take over. Whatever harm they might do as a result of being too right wing is surely no worse than what’s happening now — which is loss and decay.

Do you want a Primary for all elections? Every single one, no matter how small? Or should the Party officials handle these details . . . as long as they make all the choices that you want?

If you run a primary every single election, from President down to dogcatcher . . . kiss you party reserves goodbye.

I’ll ask you too — where is this narrative that Hoffman was trying to work with the system and the officials shut him out coming from? If there are facts that support that, tell me and I’ll learn something. How was the system screwing him over? If it did . . . WHY did it screw him over?
I don’t see any of that in the facts I’ve seen, so I have to reject that narrative without proof. Like I said, if I missed all this straighten my a$$ out — but I’m going to need some facts.

“I garuntee you that there is not one conservative out there who wants to run as a third party candidate so long as he/she is given a creidble shot in a Primary to be the nominee.”

I respectfully disagree. You mean that there isn’t one single conservative egomaniac out there, that’s more interested in power over the good of the party and the people? If so, I’m mightily impressed . . . but I’m also pretty skeptical.