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	<title>Comments on: IN DEFENSE OF HOWARD ZINN - SORT OF</title>
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	<description>Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2026 22:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ZAC D.</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767682</link>
		<dc:creator>ZAC D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767682</guid>
		<description>I actually caught "the people speak" last night and could not finish watching it. It was that horrible. Watching these actors trying to act like American patriots was pathetic, espeically since I knew everything they were saying was complete bias propaganda. The program was meant for the historically challenged. If howard zinn advocates that there is no such thing as a fact then I say 9/11 was a inside job. Obama said: Words Matter. So, we should make them live up to what they preach. Otherwise slogans such as "9/11 was inside job" become the reality.

As for howard zinn's book "A people's history of the untied states of America" unfortunately there are too many absences of footnotes to sources. 

Other problems with his book include....

- There was no "Spain" in 1492, there was Castilla and Aragon (with separate Queen and King respectively, although they were married).
- The Court of the Crown of Castilla wasn't in Madrid until 1561 (it was in Toledo by that time).
- It is not exact that Hernan Cortes turned Aztec against Aztec, but the tribes that were being slaughtered by the Aztecs.

The problem with Zinn's view is his dismissal of historical context. He presents the United States as a criminal state and provides us with a list of its crimes.

The question is, Are these crimes what is "distinctive" about the United States? Of course there are awful things this country has done, and Americans should certainly know about them, but for the most part the awful things we have done are not novel. How many societies have been hostile to "the other"? How many societies have kept the territory they have won in military engagements? How many societies have condoned slavery and sexual inequality? In how many societies has greed been a major human motivation?

The short answer to these questions? "All of them."

Yes, there are some areas in which I think we do poorly in comparison to other societies in our respect for education and for our cultural heritage, in remembering to value the life of the mind and aesthetic appreciation, but Zinn doesn't have all that much to say about our actual weaknesses.

What is different about the United States is the way we have defended, through a long and sometimes bloody series of struggles, liberty and universal equality under the law. Surely there have been many evil Americans, which (given human nature) is not a surprise, but on balance we have been an unprecedented force for good in the world.

The myth that Native Americans were saintly innocents has been debunked very thoroughly by both historians and anthropologists. This of course does not excuse the behavior of Europeans, which was sometimes evil, but the idea that Europeans were "especially" vicious can be maintained only by ignoring the history of other peoples.

On the other hand, European civilization has contributed greatly to the welfare of the world. Since the Industrial Revolution, global life expectancy has increased dramatically, as has global wealth and the quality of global health. You should also remember that slavery was a global phenomenon "throughout history" until Europeans (primarily by means of the British Navy) decided they had a moral duty to end it.

The non-Western countries that have benefited the most have been the ones that have adopted free markets and representative democracy. (And much of the non-Western world "has" asked for democracy and "does" value it.) The non-Western countries that have lagged have generally been the ones that have adopted radical leftist ideologies. If all the nonsense about capitalist "exploitation" were true, then the "exploited" capitalist countries would be poor and the countries that adopted Zinn's favored model (anti-capitalist, "anti-imperialist") would have prospered. This is decidedly "not" the case.

However, I will give him credit as he says quite openly that he has no desire to write objectively. Here he is in his own words: "From the start of my teaching and writing, I had no illusions about "objectivity", if that meant avoiding a point of view. I knew that a historian (or a journalist, or any one telling a story) was forced to choose, from an infinite number of facts, what to present, what to omit. And that decision inevitably would reflect, whether consciously or not, the interests of the historian." 

Zinn aims to advance his ideology and his "interests," not to give a balanced depiction of historical reality. In effect, Zinn is a liar, and a liar who defends ideas that have produced almost nothing outside of mass misery and mass murder.

If your looking for good counter books to Zinn's nonsense this hoilday season I suggest reading: Paul Johnson's "A History of the American People" and Larry Schweikart's "A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror." One other book I would suggest reading is 
"48 Liberal Lies About American History".

Perpare yourselves for the progressive propaganda now that Obama is president it will be coming at you ferociously. Even the history channel has sold out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually caught &#8220;the people speak&#8221; last night and could not finish watching it. It was that horrible. Watching these actors trying to act like American patriots was pathetic, espeically since I knew everything they were saying was complete bias propaganda. The program was meant for the historically challenged. If howard zinn advocates that there is no such thing as a fact then I say 9/11 was a inside job. Obama said: Words Matter. So, we should make them live up to what they preach. Otherwise slogans such as &#8220;9/11 was inside job&#8221; become the reality.</p>
<p>As for howard zinn&#8217;s book &#8220;A people&#8217;s history of the untied states of America&#8221; unfortunately there are too many absences of footnotes to sources. </p>
<p>Other problems with his book include&#8230;.</p>
<p>- There was no &#8220;Spain&#8221; in 1492, there was Castilla and Aragon (with separate Queen and King respectively, although they were married).<br />
- The Court of the Crown of Castilla wasn&#8217;t in Madrid until 1561 (it was in Toledo by that time).<br />
- It is not exact that Hernan Cortes turned Aztec against Aztec, but the tribes that were being slaughtered by the Aztecs.</p>
<p>The problem with Zinn&#8217;s view is his dismissal of historical context. He presents the United States as a criminal state and provides us with a list of its crimes.</p>
<p>The question is, Are these crimes what is &#8220;distinctive&#8221; about the United States? Of course there are awful things this country has done, and Americans should certainly know about them, but for the most part the awful things we have done are not novel. How many societies have been hostile to &#8220;the other&#8221;? How many societies have kept the territory they have won in military engagements? How many societies have condoned slavery and sexual inequality? In how many societies has greed been a major human motivation?</p>
<p>The short answer to these questions? &#8220;All of them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, there are some areas in which I think we do poorly in comparison to other societies in our respect for education and for our cultural heritage, in remembering to value the life of the mind and aesthetic appreciation, but Zinn doesn&#8217;t have all that much to say about our actual weaknesses.</p>
<p>What is different about the United States is the way we have defended, through a long and sometimes bloody series of struggles, liberty and universal equality under the law. Surely there have been many evil Americans, which (given human nature) is not a surprise, but on balance we have been an unprecedented force for good in the world.</p>
<p>The myth that Native Americans were saintly innocents has been debunked very thoroughly by both historians and anthropologists. This of course does not excuse the behavior of Europeans, which was sometimes evil, but the idea that Europeans were &#8220;especially&#8221; vicious can be maintained only by ignoring the history of other peoples.</p>
<p>On the other hand, European civilization has contributed greatly to the welfare of the world. Since the Industrial Revolution, global life expectancy has increased dramatically, as has global wealth and the quality of global health. You should also remember that slavery was a global phenomenon &#8220;throughout history&#8221; until Europeans (primarily by means of the British Navy) decided they had a moral duty to end it.</p>
<p>The non-Western countries that have benefited the most have been the ones that have adopted free markets and representative democracy. (And much of the non-Western world &#8220;has&#8221; asked for democracy and &#8220;does&#8221; value it.) The non-Western countries that have lagged have generally been the ones that have adopted radical leftist ideologies. If all the nonsense about capitalist &#8220;exploitation&#8221; were true, then the &#8220;exploited&#8221; capitalist countries would be poor and the countries that adopted Zinn&#8217;s favored model (anti-capitalist, &#8220;anti-imperialist&#8221;) would have prospered. This is decidedly &#8220;not&#8221; the case.</p>
<p>However, I will give him credit as he says quite openly that he has no desire to write objectively. Here he is in his own words: &#8220;From the start of my teaching and writing, I had no illusions about &#8220;objectivity&#8221;, if that meant avoiding a point of view. I knew that a historian (or a journalist, or any one telling a story) was forced to choose, from an infinite number of facts, what to present, what to omit. And that decision inevitably would reflect, whether consciously or not, the interests of the historian.&#8221; </p>
<p>Zinn aims to advance his ideology and his &#8220;interests,&#8221; not to give a balanced depiction of historical reality. In effect, Zinn is a liar, and a liar who defends ideas that have produced almost nothing outside of mass misery and mass murder.</p>
<p>If your looking for good counter books to Zinn&#8217;s nonsense this hoilday season I suggest reading: Paul Johnson&#8217;s &#8220;A History of the American People&#8221; and Larry Schweikart&#8217;s &#8220;A Patriot&#8217;s History of the United States: From Columbus&#8217;s Great Discovery to the War on Terror.&#8221; One other book I would suggest reading is<br />
&#8220;48 Liberal Lies About American History&#8221;.</p>
<p>Perpare yourselves for the progressive propaganda now that Obama is president it will be coming at you ferociously. Even the history channel has sold out.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Moran: &#8220;In Defense of Zinn &#8211; Sort of&#8221; &#124; NewsReal Blog</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767679</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Moran: &#8220;In Defense of Zinn &#8211; Sort of&#8221; &#124; NewsReal Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767679</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the whole thing at Rick Moran&#8217;s Right Wing Nut House. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the whole thing at Rick Moran&#8217;s Right Wing Nut House. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kreiz</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767674</link>
		<dc:creator>kreiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767674</guid>
		<description>I liked some of The People's History. but remain annoyed at Springsteen's painful Woody Gutherie pose. I'm sure he admires Gutherie, but until he significantly reduces ticket prices, his socialist cred remains suspect. Power to the People at $100 bucks a pop? I'm skeptical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked some of The People&#8217;s History. but remain annoyed at Springsteen&#8217;s painful Woody Gutherie pose. I&#8217;m sure he admires Gutherie, but until he significantly reduces ticket prices, his socialist cred remains suspect. Power to the People at $100 bucks a pop? I&#8217;m skeptical.</p>
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		<title>By: Gayle Miller</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767647</link>
		<dc:creator>Gayle Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767647</guid>
		<description>It was the worst thing you can say about a presentation like this - absolutely boring!  Seriously - it's a good thing I have a timer on my TV.  I dozed off halfway through (maybe sooner - I'm old and my memory bites).

In the meantime, Merry Christmas to All of you and Happy Hanukah to all as well.  I made latkes yesterday just for the sheer bloody fun of it and mandelbrot as well. I figure anything that is that much work is suitable for holidays only!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was the worst thing you can say about a presentation like this - absolutely boring!  Seriously - it&#8217;s a good thing I have a timer on my TV.  I dozed off halfway through (maybe sooner - I&#8217;m old and my memory bites).</p>
<p>In the meantime, Merry Christmas to All of you and Happy Hanukah to all as well.  I made latkes yesterday just for the sheer bloody fun of it and mandelbrot as well. I figure anything that is that much work is suitable for holidays only!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Giles</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767643</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Giles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767643</guid>
		<description>"...and the US perpetuated the cruelest sort of slavery."
As compared to who? The Arabs? The Romans? The Greeks? The Brazilians?
Where did you get the idea that American slavery was particularly cruel - your Marxist school teachers? Reality check. Was the voyage across the Middle Passage worse the slave caravans across the Sahara? The only thing that makes America look bad is in contrast to standards that America set. It took awhile for us to live up to our own high ideals, not that we didn't live up to some international standard. And then there is the "silver lining", this country may piss me off mightily some times; but as a black man, I'm glad I'm on this side of the ocean!

As for the Native Americans, what would one assume would be the outcome between a Stone Age culture and an industrialized one? Should we have left this country a howling wilderness to placate a bunch of savages. When has that worked? Angle-Saxons feel bad about pushing out the Native Americans, should they return to the forests of Germany where they originated? Groups of Native Americans had pushed out other groups of Native Americans.

As for our "second class" treatment of women, take a gander at how they are still being treated in most of the rest of the world. Burka clad Arab women, for example.

Zinn "history" is the usual leftist dreck, in which the US is tried and found guilty of lack of perfection. Yes, we have faults - but at least we try to do something about them. And we don't need to be constantly reminded of those faults as opposed to being praised for the ones we've tried to correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;and the US perpetuated the cruelest sort of slavery.&#8221;<br />
As compared to who? The Arabs? The Romans? The Greeks? The Brazilians?<br />
Where did you get the idea that American slavery was particularly cruel - your Marxist school teachers? Reality check. Was the voyage across the Middle Passage worse the slave caravans across the Sahara? The only thing that makes America look bad is in contrast to standards that America set. It took awhile for us to live up to our own high ideals, not that we didn&#8217;t live up to some international standard. And then there is the &#8220;silver lining&#8221;, this country may piss me off mightily some times; but as a black man, I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m on this side of the ocean!</p>
<p>As for the Native Americans, what would one assume would be the outcome between a Stone Age culture and an industrialized one? Should we have left this country a howling wilderness to placate a bunch of savages. When has that worked? Angle-Saxons feel bad about pushing out the Native Americans, should they return to the forests of Germany where they originated? Groups of Native Americans had pushed out other groups of Native Americans.</p>
<p>As for our &#8220;second class&#8221; treatment of women, take a gander at how they are still being treated in most of the rest of the world. Burka clad Arab women, for example.</p>
<p>Zinn &#8220;history&#8221; is the usual leftist dreck, in which the US is tried and found guilty of lack of perfection. Yes, we have faults - but at least we try to do something about them. And we don&#8217;t need to be constantly reminded of those faults as opposed to being praised for the ones we&#8217;ve tried to correct.</p>
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		<title>By: magoo</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767642</link>
		<dc:creator>magoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767642</guid>
		<description>Zinn is definitely biased because he is anti-corporate. 

But be honest and admit the overwhelming, massive bias that is far more pervasive is the America is Great narrative. 

This is just as biased and just as wrong. But it is the rule in our textbooks and of course in our media.

Anybody who challenges American exceptionalism is a 'hater.'  All peoples, countries, tribes believe themselves special and destined for greatness. This is equally terrible a mistake to make as 'America is uniquely bad.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zinn is definitely biased because he is anti-corporate. </p>
<p>But be honest and admit the overwhelming, massive bias that is far more pervasive is the America is Great narrative. </p>
<p>This is just as biased and just as wrong. But it is the rule in our textbooks and of course in our media.</p>
<p>Anybody who challenges American exceptionalism is a &#8216;hater.&#8217;  All peoples, countries, tribes believe themselves special and destined for greatness. This is equally terrible a mistake to make as &#8216;America is uniquely bad.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: UNRR</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767640</link>
		<dc:creator>UNRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767640</guid>
		<description>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 12/14/2009, at &lt;a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Unreligious Right&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 12/14/2009, at <a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The Unreligious Right</a></p>
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		<title>By: obamathered</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767639</link>
		<dc:creator>obamathered</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767639</guid>
		<description>Did you really watch it? I ask that honestly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you really watch it? I ask that honestly.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyranno</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767637</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyranno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 04:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767637</guid>
		<description>I read Zinn's book and came away with the impression that I just learned American history at the office water cooler.  Zinn's book was like listening to all the bitchers and whiners in the office who have all the answers if only someone would listen to them. The "ONE" that every office has, who was/were victims before being a victim was cool. It struck me as a collection of malcontents who never understood that to wrest benefits from Godless capitalists requires said capitalists are first available and profitable and thus, able to be plundered.

I try to imagine that better place that Zinn must believe is available, is out there, somewhere.  What and where is the better, more fair, model that the U.S. should be emulating?   The cruel fact for a malcontent like Zinn is that if he was practicing his special brand of enlightened grievance mongering anywhere else except the west, he and his ilk would be anonymous and quite possibly rotting in some dank, damp, dark, prison out of earshot of the masses.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is what makes the U.S.A. stronger and better than those "other countries;" but I still like the imagery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Zinn&#8217;s book and came away with the impression that I just learned American history at the office water cooler.  Zinn&#8217;s book was like listening to all the bitchers and whiners in the office who have all the answers if only someone would listen to them. The &#8220;ONE&#8221; that every office has, who was/were victims before being a victim was cool. It struck me as a collection of malcontents who never understood that to wrest benefits from Godless capitalists requires said capitalists are first available and profitable and thus, able to be plundered.</p>
<p>I try to imagine that better place that Zinn must believe is available, is out there, somewhere.  What and where is the better, more fair, model that the U.S. should be emulating?   The cruel fact for a malcontent like Zinn is that if he was practicing his special brand of enlightened grievance mongering anywhere else except the west, he and his ilk would be anonymous and quite possibly rotting in some dank, damp, dark, prison out of earshot of the masses.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is what makes the U.S.A. stronger and better than those &#8220;other countries;&#8221; but I still like the imagery.</p>
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		<title>By: thiacyn</title>
		<link>http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2009/12/13/in-defense-of-howard-zinn-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1767636</link>
		<dc:creator>thiacyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rightwingnuthouse.com/?p=5101#comment-1767636</guid>
		<description>Hey Liberty60, must be ur age! You are a simpleton! And MD is a communist! well that was SIMPLE!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Liberty60, must be ur age! You are a simpleton! And MD is a communist! well that was SIMPLE!</p>
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