Kathleen Parker writing in the National Review has taken a brave but stupid stand in favor of asking Sarah Palin to withdraw from the race.
Palin’s recent interviews with Charles Gibson, Sean Hannity, and now Katie Couric have all revealed an attractive, earnest, confident candidate. Who Is Clearly Out Of Her League.No one hates saying that more than I do. Like so many women, I’ve been pulling for Palin, wishing her the best, hoping she will perform brilliantly. I’ve also noticed that I watch her interviews with the held breath of an anxious parent, my finger poised over the mute button in case it gets too painful. Unfortunately, it often does. My cringe reflex is exhausted.
Palin filibusters. She repeats words, filling space with deadwood. Cut the verbiage and there’s not much content there. Here’s but one example of many from her interview with Hannity: “Well, there is a danger in allowing some obsessive partisanship to get into the issue that we’re talking about today. And that’s something that John McCain, too, his track record, proving that he can work both sides of the aisle, he can surpass the partisanship that must be surpassed to deal with an issue like this.”
I’m not exactly sure what Parker’s point is here. Is it that Palin doesn’t talk like a Washington policy wonk? Is it that her knowledge of the issues is deficient? What is it?
Forget that Palin is no more or less qualified for high office than Barack Obama (in some important ways, more qualified). Neither of them is inherently unqualified to serve. That’s because there are no qualifications except that the candidate be a native born American citizen and at least 35 years old. The Founders left the qualifications list extremely vague for a very good reason; they hoped and expected ordinary Americans to have a chance at the top job.
Granted we live in a complex world with huge problems. But presidents are not economic or foreign policy experts. Or military, trade, or education experts. At bottom, the greatest assets any president have are their innate common sense and their ability to communicate with the people. Beyond that, their judgement is informed by their life experience not what they read in some book somewhere. And anyone who has read presidential autobiographies knows how overwhelmed they all have felt when first taking over.
Yes, Virginia. There is always a learning curve for a new president and vice president. And while Palin may seem like a fish out of water at times, it may be because we are so used to seeing our politicians able to smoothly avoid all questions and give the answers to questions they prefer. It is the gift of Washington-speak that Palin hasn’t quite mastered yet and it shows. (Give her time and she’ll be as evasive as any politician in Washington.)
Besides this, if Palin were to withdraw, McCain may as well pack it in and go back to Arizona. No sense in staying in a race you are going to lose hugely.
So Parker’s suggestion is not only wrongheaded but ridiculously naive. It took some guts to give voice to those thoughts but frankly, she should have kept them to herself.
2:28 pm
Palin Couric Part II…
She did much better this time, better than yesterday, and in fact knocked it out of the park a couple of times, nobody knows she knocked it out of the park, and Katie Couric just might be the vehicle to push the McCain campaign over the edge and win th…
2:33 pm
Kathleen Parker is what you guys call, a Maverick.
Rick, you said: “in some important ways, more qualified”
Care to elaborate? After watching her on Couric, I was thinking what Parker just said.
2:46 pm
Kathleen Parker has no point at all.
Biden is a gaffe-a-matic. Why not call on him to withdraw?
You know why? it wont happen and is an absurd proposal.
Honestly, this criticism could be made about OBAMA:
” OBAMA filibusters. He repeats words, filling space with deadwood. Cut the verbiage and there’s not much content there. Here’s but one example….”
(take a look at whole statements, like on financial crisis, as an example.)
2:48 pm
For those of us who never thought Sarah was Margaret Thatcher it is not surprising she has had a few bumps since being exposed to the MSM vultures.
She will get better, and only naive political thinkers actually believe the President and/or Vice-President
really makes all those blood sweating decisions all by themselves.
Only those who have held an elected office understand the tremendous input from associates and subordinates that aid them in their decision making process.
LaShawn Barber was also singing the Sarah Palin blues. Is this a woman thing?
2:52 pm
Ms. Parker’s article adds nothing to the debate. While McCain is no conservative, she is. The only thing about Gov Palin that wears thin is her accent which sounds eerily like Francis McDormand in the movie Fargo.
She is not polished—-but to tell the truth, I’m sick of polish. I’m sick of the know-it-all nitwits masquerading “leaders”. The good people of Alaska must have thought her “qualified”, and by all accounts she was effective.
The cacophony against Gov Palin is bad enough when coming from the left. If we want to elect The Anointed One, let’s keep reading from their prayer book, otherwise observations of the tenor of Ms. Parkers’ are counterproductive to what counts—-namely, winning——which be impossible if McCain replaces her.
3:03 pm
Rick,
“Yes, Virginia. There is always a learning curve for a new president and vice president.”
I am beginning to think that all the pundits have forgotten this, and even if they do have experience each situation has a learning curve.
Sarah Palin is what she is, a breath of fresh air from the tired thinking and drivel that we get from the beltway crowd. I for one welcome some common sense.
3:07 pm
she’s a moron, moran.
you want this woman in charge when McCain dies in office? really? whew.
Please pick some stocks for me to buy. With prescience like yours, I could make a fortune.
ed.
3:12 pm
Edward Cropper,
Relax with your “MSM vultures” crap. I hear the same exact nonsense from the Left and Right and it’s annoying as hell.
I just want someone to ask her a bunch of questions, and I want to hear her answer them. The tougher the questions, the better. The media is supposed to be the fourth branch, the watchdog. They do a marginal job at best, I’ll agree, but I want them to be as much like vultures as possible. I want them to dissect the guts of the candidates so I can make an informed decision. I have yet to see anyone tear into Palin. She’s had a few very controlled interviews, and frankly, what I’ve seen is pathetic.
3:34 pm
I can take her not being a policy wonk but what I have serious problems with is that she seems to lack any sense of curiousity. That she attacks those who would go out and explore the world.
Not good traits in a very small 21st Century world.
3:40 pm
“I can take her not being a policy wonk but what I have serious problems with is that she seems to lack any sense of curiousity. That she attacks those who would go out and explore the world.
Not good traits in a very small 21st Century world.”
Gee “Ed,”
We could say the same about you. You seem remarkably incurious about Sarah Palin as she really is, rather than what you think she should be.
3:50 pm
And this same media has done the same to Obama and Biden when, exactly? Why do they get a free pass, particularly the neophyte with a very poor character, when Palin, the lady running for VP, not President, doesn’t?
3:52 pm
She is fine! and this Conservative woman is not displeased with her at all…to HELL I say with all the intelligensia in Washington DC….step outside of DC and by God put down the Kool-aid!
4:13 pm
Kathleen Parker is a conservative?
When did that happen?
‘Cause like, you know…calling yourself a liberal, or writing for a liberal rag, doesn’t mean that you are liberal.
Today, you know, most self-described conservatives aren’t really conservatives at all…and self described liberals are about as liberal as Stalin or Mao.
Just sayin’.
Jeez. Doesn’t anyone teach anything anymore? ...or does anyone bother to learn anything to begin with?
(Google: ‘Online Library of Liberty.’ and ‘Liberty Library of Constitutional Classics.’)
4:27 pm
I think Kathleen’s correct point is that Palin is looking more and more like the inexperienced religious nut that she is. Obama was the editor of harvard law review and is ten times more capable of engaging in reasoned discourse with heads of state, interviewers, or a debate with an intelligent adversary. Look, i’m a reaganite through and through, but we gotta start facing the fact that we’re handing our party over to religious noobs who don’t know their head from a hole in the ground. We’re going to get demolished if she stays on the ticket. Heck, I’M getting nervous voting for mccain with her on the ticket, and i’m about as fiscally conservative as they get. Her first speech was folksy and cute, but the gambit didn’t work. You can sit here and gripe about the liberal MSM being harsh on her but her answers in these interviews are just horrible and all anybody needs to do is reprint them verbatim and say “you want HER running the country?” obviously, people are saying seeing these interviews and rethinking their position on her. Kathleen is smart to point it out before it’s too late, if it isn’t already.
4:30 pm
William Teach
“”And this same media has done the same to Obama and Biden when, exactly? Why do they get a free pass, particularly the neophyte with a very poor character, when Palin, the lady running for VP, not President, doesn’t?””
What? They constantly hold press conferences, do interviews, and answer questions. Are you suggesting that Obama/Biden get easier questions from the media than McCain/Palin do? Seriously? What free pass are you talking about?
4:37 pm
Only a certified moron could honestly believe that the (MSM Crap ) is not in the tank for Obama.
I have no problem with any Rep. or Dem. candidate being asked hard meaningful questions that are relevant to the election process.
Katie Couric and Charlie Gibson were not anywhere close to that criteria. These liberal shills are void of common journalistic professionalism.
True Sean Hannity was a cheerleader, but then he always is.
4:43 pm
You can never have enough politician/lawyers who were taught to spin bullshit into wool!
Both sides seem to think that hiring Obama or Palin means just hiring an individual. I think it’s as much about hiring the hundreds of political appointees (and their staffs so it extends to the thousands – is it any wonder that politicians will trade ethics for power with that incentive?) as the person on top. A President Obama will lead (and be lead by) a host of former Clinton officals. A President/Vice President Palin will have the same resources.
If any VP candidate is disqualified it’s Biden. He would have carved up Iraq 18 months ago, wasting the lives of 4,000 Americans. While nothing is set in stone, Iraq now seems to be on the way up. That seems pretty incredible given where we were two years ago. It’s been costly, but changing the trajectory of a country of 25 million isn’t easy.
4:51 pm
Yeah? And put who in her place? Loyalty apparently means nothing to you, lady.
4:51 pm
Actually, the reason the Founders left the qualifications “vague” was not because “they hoped and expected ordinary Americans to have a chance at the top job.” In fact, they believed just the opposite – that the vast majority of the population was incapable of doing the job. They did, however, trust the ability of the voting population to pick the right candidate without codifying explicit qualifications.
We have gone from a system where someone was well known because they were qualified to one where someone is presumed qualified because they are well known.
4:59 pm
The constitutional qualification of 35 years of age and born American we meant to avoid qualifications like wealth, land ownership, heredity etc. It was implied and hoped that the people would select the finest they could since it was in their best interest to have someone with the right requirements at any specific time in history. Sarah Palin isn’t in our best interest. She was a political pick to get McCain elected. This is not country first!
5:09 pm
Why should have Ms. Parker have kept her thoughts to herself? That’s what being a writer is all about! Lord knows that if anybody would tell Rick Moran to keep his opinions to himself, he would tell them to piss off, and rightfully so. I am not familiar with her writings; is she usually a party-line columnist or more of an independent conservative?
5:30 pm
Surabaya Stew,
“Lord knows that if anybody would tell Rick Moran to keep his opinions to himself, he would tell them to piss off, and rightfully so.”
When someone tells Rick Moran what to, (or not to) write about, the response usually goes a little something like this…
“Look you ****** piece of *****, if you don’t ****** like what I choose to ******* write about, you can go **** my ************* **** after your mom ***** my ******* with her ***** ***** ****! If you want to hear about some ****** ******** then you can go **** yourself and start your own ******** ******* blog, you ****** ******* **** ******.”
6:05 pm
Chuck (and others),
You asked in what way is Palin more qualified than Obama? She has actual executive/leadership experience. She’s gone against corrupt politicians in her own party and made great strides in cleaning up politics in Alaska. These are all things Obama SAYS he has but Palin had DEMONSTRATED. I’ll agree with you that it would be nice to have more thorough interactions between Palin and the media – but I also place equal if not more merit on a candidates past choices and their record. There are many reasons why someone (like Palin) would not do a stellar job at interviewing – but looking at what someone has actually done is a more precise and accurate way of seeing who they really are.
Do you want to know what her specific plans and views are relative to international and domestic affairs? That’s a fair question to ask but – as Rick points out – she probably doesn’t have the answers people are looking for. She’s the governor of Alaska for crying out loud. She could probably speak much more eloquently and powerfully about the issues she’s had to actually deal with as governor than “what should be done about Iran or Pakistan?”. Obama only has an opinion about these matters (if you can even pin him down on what he actually thinks) because he has to as a presidential candidate and he’s been ‘running’ for president for years. Palin was basically plucked out of thin air as a VP - I think it would be odd if she had all sorts of well formed opinions about what to do in order to bring about world peace and domestic bliss.
6:16 pm
If Palin withdrew now it would be over for McCain. McCain needs to pull of something in the late innings like announce some cabinet members the DAY before the election. Mitt for Treasury, Rudy for AG etc..
6:22 pm
Yikes! what I have read is slightly kind of just a little bit disturbing – this woman has no place being a Presidential candidate. Who in their right mind would charge a rape victim for a rape kit? Who in their right mind would say they have foreign policy experience because
Russia and Canada are (so) close? Not to mention the thing about Alaska providing 20% of oil used in the states – when in fact it doesn’t. Come on, this woman cannot be trusted with anything. I say send her back to Alaska with a second place ribbon…
6:31 pm
Tobias,
I’ve also heard that Obama is really a Muslim (in fact I can show you a clip where he refers to ‘his muslim faith’). He also believes there are 59 states. His wife also hates America. How can we elect this terrorist retard for president?!?
6:50 pm
Whenever I read one of Parker’s columns, I come away asking myself how she managed to become a syndicated columnist. She’s a Peggy Noonan wannabe without exceptional writing talent or an interesting point of view. I imagine that she feels brave for writing this column, but there is no way that Palin is leaving the race now. If she dropped out to spend more time with her youngest child or for some other reason that should have been anticipated, it will set women in politics back 25 years.
7:50 pm
I’m a Palin fan, but I admit – she doesn’t know how to answer these dumb stump questions the media throws at her. You can’t let them see you sweat. So, she needs a new strategy. I think it would be so entertaining to see what would happen if she prefaced each remark with something like, “Well, I’m no community organizer, but this is what I believe…” or “Last time I checked we had 50 states, not 57, and those 50 states want a President who can lead, and this is what a McCain/Palin administration would do…”
Hey, if you’re the underdog already, you might as well go out with guns blazing! Give ‘em hell Sarah!
But, you’re right Rick. Eventually she will learn the Washington art of not answering a question while still appearing totally in command. No doubt in 4 years they will be criticizing her for that instead of her flustered answers of today.
7:51 pm
“The Founders left the qualifications list extremely vague for a very good reason; they hoped and expected ordinary Americans to have a chance at the top job.”
This assertion could use a little support. First off: define “ordinary American”. After you do that maybe a little as to how you divined the “Founders” intentions.
FWIW the US Constitution was written with a view to enable Mr(s) Everyperson to aspire to the office of POTUS, not to enable “anyone” to hold it.
Any A$$ can sit in the chair behind the desk but one requires a head full of knowledge(facts if you will), the intelligence to interpret that knowledge and the temperament to act rationally.
Sarah Palin apparently has no intellectual depth. That is a disqualification in my book. The country is too big and complicated to allow a under-prepared person to be POTUS. Haven’t the last eight years of the bush/CHENY act proven that? If not then buckle-up because if McCain/Palin gets elected it will be a much rougher ride.
8:01 pm
Katie Couric Edited Interview to Make Palin Look Bad…
HOW TO DESTROY A DECENT WOMANThe Pink Flamingo’s regular readers know when I agree with Kathryn Jean Lopez we’re getting a little disparate around here. This is one of those times. We all agree that Palin looked terrible in the CBS interview wi…
8:30 pm
Shelby,
“I’m a Palin fan, but I admit – she doesn’t know how to answer these dumb stump questions the media throws at her.”
Which question(s) do you consider dumb stump questions?
8:43 pm
Bald Ninja,
Ok, back in 2000, I was very much in support of Senator McCain. Mainly because he crossed party lines where I cross party lines. There were various issues I had with him, but that’s not important now.
In the primaries this time, most Republican party members were very much against McCain. Mostly for the reasons I liked him. His battles with his own party, various stances, etc. Through some sort of magic, he managed to get the nomination.
Now, it seems that his party conflicts are being presented as a reason TO vote for him, when they were the exact reason that so many loathed him before the primary. The very same argument is being used now as a reason to support Governor Palin. Though, in my reading, I haven’t really seen where she battled her party over much of anything.
I guess I’m not sure what to believe now.
10:58 pm
my muslim faith, 57 states uh uh uh not counting Hawaii and Alaska,
Give me a break. Obama is adored, slathered over by commentators. they compensate whisper to him.
Palin, Obama’s supporter and fundraiser, Sandra Bernhard gave a show about gang-raping Palin. GANG RAPING her, after calling her every vile name in the book
And the Washington Post said the show was hilarious.
I’d be very jostled right now if I was palin. Good way to rally around your leaders conservatives. You weak kneed wimps!
10:59 pm
I am officially calling on Kathleen Parker to step down. Her writing has become quite pedestrian. She is one of the few NRO writers who I no longer read because she rarely has anything interesting to say.
11:44 pm
Watched the debate and I would say it was pretty much a draw. Not much love lost, no surprise there. On Thursday we will then know if Palin can deliver. Up to now I don’t have much faith in her but then we’ll see. If she were to withdraw we wouldn’t need the next debates because it would be game over. So now back to important topics of talking in tongues in 12 houses in 57 states (how do I get Biden in)
6:23 am
If Palin were a man, let alone a Democrat, Republicans would be screaming from the rooftops about her ignorance and apparent inability to alter that ignorance.
She’s had weeks with McCain’s people. Weeks to get up to speed. And she makes honest Republicans cringe and all Democrats laugh.
Furthermore, the McCain people know it. Why was Biden out there as a surrogate on the networks and Palin was not? Because McCain’s people know she’s a disaster. Every time she does an interview she looks worse. That’s not a “learning curve,” that’s someone unteachable.
I know the righties love her, but I’ll bet you her numbers with indies are dropping and she’ll end by being a drag on the ticket.
7:49 am
I spent the presidential primaries posting comments at Politico favorable to Obama and no other Democratic Presidential candidate and no Republican presidential candidate. Once the presidential and vice presidential candidates were known I stopped commenting on Obama’s behalf at Politico and started posting there comments favorable only to Sarah Palin.
I am not a Pentecostal or a woman and I have never been to Alaska . I am also not a racist as when there were only presidential candidates to consider for both sides in the primaries, the only one I made an effort to support was Obama.
I wonder how many Americans there are like me? If there are enough, McCain/Palin will win in November.
9:27 am
Palin sure has the socialist/communist/nanny-staters is a panic, no? That has got to be a good thing for the Republicans. Now, when are the 527’s going to start running the devestating ads on Ayers, Rezco, Wright,et al?
11:58 am
Chuck Tucson,
Here are a bunch of questions that no interviewer has asked/dared to ask Obama
1. What exactly would you have done in 2003 when the intelligence reports on Iraq’s WMD program was troubling enough for 77 senators to grant authorization to Bush to go to war in Iraq?
If you voted no on the resolution, does it mean that you have no confidence in your own intelligence appartus?
What do you think of the NIE estimate on Iran? Do you believe US intelligence on this matter?
2.In 2004, you said that you were not ready to be on a national ticket – what exactly has happened in the last 3 years, that now makes you think that you are qualified to be the leader of the free world?
3.You have claimed that you know the difference between Sunnis and Shia? Could we know how exactly you know about Muslim denominations?
4.Could we also care to ask why exactly knowing the difference between these two sects matters in Iraq?
5.You have earmarked millions of dollars of funds for programs run by Wright, Pfleger. Do you regret this decision now?
6. Could you please care to elaborate any quantifiable results of your work at Alteld Gardens? Could you please care to comment on that sorry dump of a community now?
7. You said that Bill Ayers was nothing more than a English professor you knew – care to explain the nature of your work with Ayers on the Chicago Annenburg Challenge for 7 plus years? What was the nature of your work?
8. Bill Ayers recently attended a poltical meeting in Venezuela honoring Hugo Chavez. He claimed that the revolution could be spread only by educating young people.
He and you have both worked together on public education school policy in Chicago. Do you have any idea of Ayer’s thoughts on what this “revolution” is? And why it can only be spread through “education”?
9. You were in Jeremiah Wright’s church for 20 plus years. Your book is titled after one of the sermons he supposedly gave – how come a person who has so inspired you turn out to be a harsh critic of America ? How long have you known this attitude of his?
If you havent, what does it say about the fact that you didnt know some one even though you have been going to this person’s church for two decades?
10. What was the nature of your 18 year relationship with a known political fixer like Tony Rezko ?
11.Why did you support Todd Stroger’s son over Forrest Claypool in Cook County elections in 2006? Did you think that Stroger was a better choice ?
12. Who was the last politician who gave a clean bill of health to a city government headed by Mayor Daley ? Why exactly would you say that corruption in Chicago has been wiped out?
13. Emil Jones, your mentor is retiring from IL State Senate. He is going to be replaced by his son Emil Jones Jr. Care to comment on this open show of nepotism?
14. Recently, you called Emil Jones to accept an ethics legislation package on IL State. Why do you think there is a need for this package?
And why did you not feel the need to urge Emil Jones when you were in the actual IL State Senate only 5 years back ?
Has IL state suddenly become “ethically challenged” in the last five years?
15. Governor Palin has taken on the oil industry in Alaska and has exposed her own party men’s corruption. When was the last time you stood up to the Democrat party machine in Chicago?
16. After becoming President, will you apologize to the UN for the invasion of Iraq?
17. How many people do you think are voting for you just to see a black man become US President?
I could ask many more questions, but as an Obama supporter, may be you can try to ask yourself why exactly no one has come close to asking legitimate questions about a candidate that no one has much of an idea about.
It is always amusing to find Obama supporters who claim that he has been through an 18 month campaign and that he has been under the microscope.
You folks have NO IDEA. And it shows.
12:23 pm
I don’t like any of the candidates: Obama, McCain, Biden or Palin. Personally, I had been hoping someone like Colin Powell would run for President, maybe with someone like Mike Bloomberg as VP.
But we have the current crop.
Anyway, I don’t think it’s craaaazy or wacky to hope to hear what Sarah Palin thinks of the current bailout proposal, how she thinks we should deal with Russia and how she would handle an international incident between the U.S. and Pakistan, which is looking more and more likely. (The Pakistani army are actually shooting at our helicopters encroaching on their border). I mean, McCain’s age is a factor, and if, God forbid, he passes in office if elected of course, she’s President.
12:45 pm
It is very difficult for any of us who care about politics to see candidates beyond our own filters of what is good or bad. As a liberal, I will admit I had problems seeing what palookas both John Kerry and Walter Mondale were. Way too much energy defending their inability to mount anything resembling a worthwhile campaign.
That said, a look at Sarah Palin reveals a person trying to wade across the Marianas Trench-in wwaaaaay over her head. She is uncritical in her thinking (to be kind), lacks curiosity beyond slogans and talking points, and has demonstrated little knowledge of American or world affairs.
Do not confuse making a gaffe with a lack of knowledge. To state that Barack Obama does not know the number of states in the USA or that John McCain doesn’t know the difference between the Sunni and the Shia is ridiculous in both cases. Those kind of statements reveal thosed who make them to be a parroter, not a thinker. Speaking nonstop will cause anyone to make a gaffe here and there, but that is very different that trying to skate your way through an interview when it is obvious you don’t know the answers to the questions. Sarah Palin has tried to cover her lack of knowledge with winks, smiles and enthusiasm. That may get you through a career reading off of a monitor in television, but no one can whine when someone presents themself in a uninformed, simplistic manner and tries to bluff their way through and then gets called on it.
2:20 pm
Nagarajan Sivakumar,
Is that a cut/paste job or did you think of those yourself? Interesting questions, to be sure. I didn’t see much in the way of policy. Lots of “did you beat your wife today” logical fallacy questions in there though. Well played.
Do you have a similar list for McCain, or has he answered all of these types of questions adequately enough for you?
Nice that you assume that my research of the candidates implies that I’m in the bag for the Democrats, and that I “have NO idea.”
I watched him on O’Reilly. Several of these questions were presented and answered there. I’m not saying I was satisfied with the answers, but your smug innuendo actually makes me not care.
Here’s want I’m certain of: Senator Obama is a Christian. He loves his country. He is extremely intelligent. He’s done some questionable stuff to get where he is today. Beyond that, I want to know where he stands on issues that I care about. That’s what I’m looking for.
I’ve done homework on Senator McCain as well. Mostly back in 2000 before he lost the nomination. He seems to have changed a bit since then, so I’m trying to get a better feel for his policies now.
Implying that Senator Obama is a terrorist sympathizing closet Muslim with radical Christian friends, all of whom hate America, is fucking stupid and does nothing but distract from whatever agenda it is you’re trying to push. Try a new approach.
12:20 am
Chuck Tucson,
“Is that a cut/paste job or did you think of those yourself? Interesting questions, to be sure. I didn’t see much in the way of policy.”
Hmm.. lets make a deal – i wont assume that you are a Democrat, and you dont assume that i am doing cut/paste jobs. Deal ?
I live in Chicago – i ve been here for the last three years. I have had a chance to look at local politics here and who its players are. And how it basically works.
You say that you didnt see much in the realm of policy – here’s my opinion on policy – any wonk can come up with any number of policies. What matters is how the candidate approaches an issue – what are his/her thoughts and ideas – and more importantly, what would he/she do as an executive?
“Lots of did you beat your wife today logical fallacy questions in there though. Well played.”
Actually, i am not “playing” – these are questions that I would like a response from Barack Obama. Also if you cannot point out, what the “fallacies” are and demonstrate how exactly they are fallacious, you show yourself to be uninterested in debate. I can call you remarks stupid – there, i just said it. If i dont say why they sound stupid, I am not adding any thing to the debate.
That’s exactly what you are doing – passing over the questions, without trying to deal with them. Dont worry, you have nt done anything the MSM has already done – give Barack Obama a pass.
“I watched him on O’Reilly. Several of these questions were presented and answered there. I’m not saying I was satisfied with the answers, but your smug innuendo actually makes me not care.”
Really? So O’Reilly is the show that i have to watch to get these “answers” is it ? I dont care whether you care or not or if you think I am smug or not. Bill O Reilly does not know a damned thing about Obama – and yeah, when did he become the authority on Presidential candidates any ways?
“Here’s want I’m certain of: Senator Obama is a Christian. He loves his country. He is extremely intelligent. He’s done some questionable stuff to get where he is today. Beyond that, I want to know where he stands on issues that I care about. That’s what I’m looking for”
– Here’s what I dont care about- whether he is Christian, Muslim or anything else – there is no religious test. What exactly makes you think he is intelligent ? Because he sounds that way ?
How many intelligent people have the following “policy positions” on an issue like Iran
a. Its not a serious threat – it has 0.1% of US GDP !!
b. Its a GRAVE threat – said by Obama while at AIPAC !!
c. Its stupid to not talk to Iranian leaders like Ahmedinejad directly – I am willing to meet with them.
d. Who says Ahmedinejad is the “real leader” of Iran ?
e. Ahmedinejad may not even be in power when I want to deal with Iran !
That’s five incoherent babbles that even a stupid person would not be able to come up with !
This is what your intelligent candidate had to say about Russia’s invasion of Georgia
“Obama calls for UN Security Council Resolution on Georgia”. Heh ! Russia has a veto which your candidate does not either seem to know or or understand. The only resolution in which UNSC members are required to abstain are in Chapter 6 of the UN mandate – these resolutions end up with nothing more than “strong condemnations” of aggressive action by a nation state. Toothless to do a damned thing.
This is what your intelligent candidate sees as a way to “fix” Social Security. Raise taxes on individuals who earn more than 200K a year and families that earn more than 250K per year.
He has not mentioned what this exact tax rate would be – and more importantly he thinks that high income earners would take this tax increase lying down ! No chance of passing this cost on to people who depend on their services ? What exactly do you think employers do right now? Do you think they pay their 6.2% share ? They reduce this amount from the employee’s annual salary and then show as though they “pay their share”.
Your intelligent candidate thinks that raising the capital gains tax is needed because… because.. its FAIR ! We call this re-distributionist Marxism – not intelligence. People suffer losses in the trading markets too – do they get compensated for that ? Nope – but your intelligent candidate thinks that its all right to jack up capital gains rate. Gee, would nt this spur investments in this country?
I can take each and every position of this “intelligent candidate” and tear it down. I dont have the energy or the time for it.
“Implying that Senator Obama is a terrorist sympathizing closet Muslim with radical Christian friends, all of whom hate America, is fucking stupid and does nothing but distract from whatever agenda it is you’re trying to push. Try a new approach.”
Making assumptions about what I am implying makes you an ass. Where was it that I implied that he is a terrorist?
His association with Jeremiah Wright speaks for itself – this is a race hustler to the core. Obama who was not a Christian until he came to Chicago, used Wright to get into the good graces of the black community. Once Wright called him out as nothing more than a politician he threw him under the bus.
A mere two months after giving his “race speech” ( how is that national conversation on race going by the way?) where he defended Wright, he resigns from his church !!
How much more transparent does it need to be? If your heart bleeds at the thought that Obama is nothing more than a cynical politician who has used his whole “Christian faith” as nothing more than political tool, and I point this out, why blame me ?
What ever makes people like you think that an Obama critic who does not fawn over him has an “agenda” ? Yes, its possible to criticize him without having any “agenda”.
I have been observing Obama for a long time and have much deeper knowledge about him and his background and what character he is made of than you do. I dont need to agree with you – i have more command of the fundamental facts about him – you DONT.
Why dont you try a new approach ? Either provide an effective rebuttal of the issues i raised – or agree that you dont have a clue.
10:02 am
[...] John McCain by demanding she withdraw as his VP nominee. If she does, he’s done. Like Rick Moran wrote today: “…Besides this, if Palin were to withdraw, McCain may as well pack it in and go back to [...]
1:09 pm
Ms. Parker simply pointed out that Caribou Barbie is a functional imbecile. (All lipstick, no pig.) She’s being honest, which is most unusual for a conservative, and I respect her integrity.
But you’re quite correct, too. If McQueeg dumped Palin, his hydrophobic fundie base would evaporate. (Although with all the gambling stuff coming out they can’t be too thrilled.)
Anyway, I’m looking forward to Thursday night’s cage match. That should prove almost as entertaining as the Rapture.
A
2:04 pm
“Hmm.. lets make a deal – i wont assume that you are a Democrat, and you dont assume that i am doing cut/paste jobs. Deal ?”
Deal. You can formulate your own questions and I am not a Democrat. Got it.
“I live in Chicago – i ve been here for the last three years. I have had a chance to look at local politics here and who its players are. And how it basically works.”
That great. I’ve lived in Chicago my entire life. I too follow local politics.
“You say that you didnt see much in the realm of policy – here’s my opinion on policy – any wonk can come up with any number of policies. What matters is how the candidate approaches an issue – what are his/her thoughts and ideas – and more importantly, what would he/she do as an executive?”
That’s awesome. Policy, and all that other stuff you just said matters to me too.
“Lots of did you beat your wife today logical fallacy questions in there though. Well played.”
“Actually, i am not “playing” – these are questions that I would like a response from Barack Obama.
Also if you cannot point out, what the “fallacies” are and demonstrate how exactly they are fallacious, you show yourself to be uninterested in debate. I can call you remarks stupid – there, i just said it. If i dont say why they sound stupid, I am not adding any thing to the debate.”
Really? Does it really matter how he knows about Muslim denominations? Does it matter if he took a religious studies class in college, or if he did research on the web? Why is this relevant to anything? OR, are you possibly in some remote way trying to subtly suggest that he’s had some sort of Muslim schooling that we don’t already know about? Framing. It’s called a Loaded Question logical fallacy. Again, well done.
“That’s exactly what you are doing – passing over the questions, without trying to deal with them.”
Meh. Some of them I care about, Some I don’t.
“Dont worry, you have nt done anything the MSM has already done – give Barack Obama a pass.”
Of course. It’s the MSM’s fault. Both sides cry and whine about the MSM. Everyone gets a pass.
“I watched him on O’Reilly. Several of these questions were presented and answered there. I’m not saying I was satisfied with the answers, but your smug innuendo actually makes me not care.”
“Really? So O’Reilly is the show that i have to watch to get these “answers” is it ?”
Wow, it actually sounds like you’re attacking me because I pointed out that Obama was presented with questions on national television that you said you’d like to see him get asked. I suppose you could just read the transcript.
“I dont care whether you care or not or if you think I am smug or not. Bill O Reilly does not know a damned thing about Obama – and yeah, when did he become the authority on Presidential candidates any ways?
I said none of that. I just said he was on O’Reilly, who is part of the MSM. O’Reilly asked him similar questions to several of those on your list. Obama answered them. Your views on his answers are your views, but saying the questions have never been asked in a national spotlight is invalid.
– Here’s what I dont care about- whether he is Christian, Muslim or anything else – there is no religious test.
No, not according to the constitution. But you know what I meant. Wait, no, maybe you don’t. What I meant was that there are great deals of people who say that he’s Muslim as a scare tactic. He is not Muslim.
“What exactly makes you think he is intelligent ? Because he sounds that way ?”
No, because he graduated from Harvard Law School, was president of the Harvard Law Review, Served as a Civil Rights Attorney, Spent 12 years as a Constitutional Law Professor, Spent years as a state senator, then went on to become a United States Senator serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran’s Affairs committees.
Usually people who aren’t at least somewhat intelligent don’t make it that far.
“How many intelligent people have the following “policy positions” on an issue like Iran…”
I will not accept out of context one liner “policy positions” as proof that he is not intelligent. Sorry.
“That’s five incoherent babbles that even a stupid person would not be able to come up with !”
Again, that’s five out of context pseudo quotes used prove that he’s stupid. Again, I don’t think he’s stupid. Furthermore, I’d be amazed if you can find any politician ever who’s said anything different to AIPAC.
“This is what your intelligent candidate had to say about Russia’s invasion of Georgia”
“Obama calls for UN Security Council Resolution on Georgia”. Heh ! Russia has a veto which your candidate does not either seem to know or or understand. The only resolution in which UNSC members are required to abstain are in Chapter 6 of the UN mandate – these resolutions end up with nothing more than “strong condemnations” of aggressive action by a nation state. Toothless to do a damned thing.
You are vastly over generalizing the situation, both regarding Georgia and what it means to call for a Security Council resolution.
“This is what your intelligent candidate sees as a way to “fix” Social Security. Raise taxes on individuals who earn more than 200K a year and families that earn more than 250K per year.”
I don’t believe the tax plan is designed specifically to “fix” social security. Which, arguably is only broken in the regard that it’s not a protected fund. Protected from governmental borrowing, that is.
“He has not mentioned what this exact tax rate would be – and more importantly he thinks that high income earners would take this tax increase lying down ! No chance of passing this cost on to people who depend on their services ? What exactly do you think employers do right now? Do you think they pay their 6.2% share ? They reduce this amount from the employee’s annual salary and then show as though they “pay their share”.”
Thanks for the business lesson.
“Your intelligent candidate thinks that raising the capital gains tax is needed because… because.. its FAIR ! We call this re-distributionist Marxism – not intelligence. People suffer losses in the trading markets too – do they get compensated for that ? Nope – but your intelligent candidate thinks that its all right to jack up capital gains rate. Gee, would nt this spur investments in this country?”
Bah. Obama will create a new top capital gains rate of 20 percent. Obama’s 20% rate is equal is the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate that President Bush proposed in 2001. It is almost a third lower than the rate that President Reagan signed into law in 1986. Far from the supposed Marxism you’re claiming.
“I can take each and every position of this “intelligent candidate” and tear it down. I dont have the energy or the time for it.”
That’s awesome.
“Making assumptions about what I am implying makes you an ass. Where was it that I implied that he is a terrorist?”
Another logical fallacy. I didnt say that you implied that he was a terrorist. What I said was:
“Implying that Senator Obama is a terrorist sympathizing closet Muslim with radical Christian friends, all of whom hate America, is fucking stupid…”
“His association with Jeremiah Wright speaks for itself”
Really? Does it? Dare I apply that flawed logic to all politicians? I wouldn’t even be able to go to the polling place on Election Day. What would be the point?
“– this is a race hustler to the core.”
Agreed. Wright has some serious issues.
“Obama who was not a Christian until he came to Chicago, used Wright to get into the good graces of the black community. Once Wright called him out as nothing more than a politician he threw him under the bus.”
Are you saying that he worked in the community for almost 15 years in order to get into their good graces so he could get elected? That demonstrates a great deal of forethought and planning on his part, you know, if he actually did that.
“A mere two months after giving his “race speech” ( how is that national conversation on race going by the way?) where he defended Wright, he resigns from his church !!”
I don’t see how your race speech sarcasm relates to a dispute between him and Wright.
How much more transparent does it need to be? If your heart bleeds at the thought that Obama is nothing more than a cynical politician who has used his whole “Christian faith” as nothing more than political tool, and I point this out, why blame me ?
I’m not blaming you. He’s a politician. That’s what they do. 80 million evangelicals have been used as political tools for the past eight years. I don’t deride the politicians for doing this; I deride the people for being stupid enough to believe it.
“What ever makes people like you think that an Obama critic who does not fawn over him has an “agenda” ? Yes, its possible to criticize him without having any “agenda”.
Agreed. It’s your method of criticizing that seems to be not exactly agenda neutral.
“I have been observing Obama for a long time and have much deeper knowledge about him and his background and what character he is made of than you do. I dont need to agree with you – i have more command of the fundamental facts about him – you DONT.”
That’s great man, that’s really awesome of you.
“Why dont you try a new approach ? Either provide an effective rebuttal of the issues i raised – or agree that you dont have a clue.”
I concede. Congratulations, you win. I don’t have a clue.
2:30 pm
The Couric interview was a splice job. they engaged in journalistic malpractice.
Worse than gibson’s gotcha journalism, they are now into lying-journalism. Mismatching questions and answers to make her answer sound non-responsive. CBS needs to release the full unedited interview; they have done another “Rathergate” in their desperate attempt to help Obama win the election. They excised moderate comments and misamtched questions and answers.
Pink Flamingo.”If you read the edits, Palin does not look like an idiot. That’s the whole point. Couric had to make her look bad.”
It gets worse. American Prowler reported: “...CBS New anchor Katie Couric ordered staff to drop all references to “Governor” or “Gov.” from her interview with Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.”
And “Producers and editorial staff at both NBC and ABC report that fellow staffers have openly ridiculed Palin, her professional and personal background and her family during production meetings, in the editing bays during video editing for nightly news stories, and while covering Palin at political events….”
This is journalistic malpractice, with a clear intention and agenda of diminishing Governor Sarah Palin that apparently has worked.
Our media has all the credibility of the USSR’s Pravda.
2:34 pm
“Obama who was not a Christian until he came to Chicago, used Wright to get into the good graces of the black community. Once Wright called him out as nothing more than a politician he threw him under the bus.”
“Are you saying that he worked in the community for almost 15 years in order to get into their good graces so he could get elected? That demonstrates a great deal of forethought and planning on his part, you know, if he actually did that.”
Obama was a leftwing community activist. He worked with ACORN and other groups. He worked with Ayers on the $100 million Annenberg challenge grant that wasted millions on infused leftist ideology into the schools. His core is about advancing the left agenda. If being in a Black Liberation Theology church that just happens to preach black panther style worldviews and calls it Christian, so be it. All for The Cause. (And the cause is more Marx than Jesus, to play on words by jean francois ravel.)
2:57 pm
Travis Monitor said:
“His core is about advancing the left agenda. ”
Um.. yeah. And John McCain’s core is about advancing the right agenda. The left fights for left stuff, the right fights for right stuff. The Democrats think they’re awesome. The Republicans think they’re awesome.
I’m just trying to figure out who I think is awesome.
5:48 pm
Chuck Tucson,
You lived in Chicago ALL YOUR LIFE and you STILL support Obama !
Chuck, I CONCEDE - wow, I still cannot get past that.Wait a minute, did you just say that you lived in Chicago your entire life and think that Obama is .. what is that.. “agent of change”.I Give Up. You win, Chuck.
Your claims that Obama will have the capital gains tax at 20% is laughable – please go back to the Philadelphia debate where Charles Gibson SCHOOLED him on this issue – the tax will be atleast 38% -HIGHER than Bill Clinton.
There is one thing that i would like to clarify before we end our tete-a-tete.
You never really understood my questions about Obama’s boast about knowing Shia/Sunni differences, did you ? It was not prove that he was some “secret” Muslim. I dont care what his religion is.
He used this in the context of explaining Iraq and why he thought that it was a HUGE mistake to enter into a war – his contention was that we were trying to bring democracy to a region (not a country) that was impossible to ever become a democratic country – after all its two main sects are at each others throats ! If only there was a US President who knew how Sunnis and Shias would not get along, we would not be in this war.
That my friend is what ticks me off – Sunnis and Shias have co-existed with each other for hundreds of years in Baghdad INSPITE of their rivalry. Modern day Iraqis are among the MOST modern Muslims – they inter marry, observe each other’s religious festivals. They do not even ask for religious denomination some times because they feel its not a cultured thing to do.
Obama’s shallow knowledge of the Islamic denominations was PARADED around as some deep source of knowledge about a religion 95% of Americans HAVE NO CLUE about.
Coming from India, and living a country whose Muslim population is half the US population and having heard tales about how Hindus and Muslims could never co-exist, I found myself mildly amused. The country that was specifically created to “protect” the Muslims (Pakistan) is now the biggest source of terrorism concern in the world.
OTOH, the country that was supposed to have the Hindu’s DOMINATE the Muslims has already had 2 Muslim Presidents and a Muslim businessman who is the RICHEST Indian.Not bad, huh?
Any wisecrack who does not know the first thing about India can crow loudly about how Hindus and Muslims have had a contentious relationship and CAN never get along- they would have no idea of the dynamic that exists in modern day India. Or how for all their troubles, they exist more peacefully than ANY ONE gave them a chance.
Today Shias and Sunnis are more united than ANYONE ever thought they could be. Heck, Joe Biden WANTED to partition Iraq into three regions with a weak federal Govt. He did not think Iraq was/could be ONE nation. Barack Obama essentially agreed with that. Hence his repeated assertions that 4000+ lives HAVE BEEN LOST - as far as he is concerned these sacrifices went towards creating democracy in a country that WAS NOT A COUNTRY.
Today after 18 months of the surge and the MOST sustained period of peace, where the Sunni’s have joined Shia Government ( WHO”D HAVE THUNK THAT ?), what does Barack Obama have to say about Iraq? Does he think that Shias and Sunnis can be one people in one nation ?
His entire candidacy is based on a negative answer to that question and how he alone HAS THE GREAT JUDGEMENT to have warned about going into a “dumb war”.
Chuck Tucson, meet your INTELLIGENT Harvard graduate President who made a spot decision on Iraq without understanding or knowing any specific details about that country. Iraq is the reason he beat Hillary and is in a position to be the next POTUS.
People deserve the leadership they get – in Obama’s case, it could not be any truer. For not bothering to know who this person is, you deserve an extreme Marxist like him.
9:30 pm
Guh. Ok, just a couple of things.
First, I do not support Obama. You putting words in my mouth is annoying as fuck. I am currently undecided. I am not registered with any political party, nor will I ever be. Which is one of the reasons I read this site. I like to read what both sides are talking about. I wanted McCain in 2000, this year, I’m having doubts.
My claims about Obama’s 20% capital gains tax come directly from his written tax proposal. That is one of his campaign promises. Whether or not I believe it, is another matter. Your 38% claim though, is so unbelievably ridiculously absurd that I can’t even formulate a response to it. 38%? Nonsense.
As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ‘surge’ has been successful.
They have drawn their turf lines and slaughtered their way to neutrality. Combine that with the US literally paying cash to former Sunni insurgents to help them kill other insurgents, and you get Surge success. Just don’t go into the wrong neighborhood or you might get a power drill shoved into your heart and have your head hacked off with a small dull knife. Yay, victory! Yay coexistence!
I’m not saying that the Administration wasn’t smart enough to understand what would happen. I’m just saying that it makes me upset that they didn’t care. Their post war planning was literally non existent. Had it been otherwise thousands of people wouldn’t have murdered each other.
9:33 pm
Chuck Tucson,
“Your 38% claim though, is so unbelievably ridiculously absurd that I can’t even formulate a response to it. 38%? Nonsense.”
28% – thats what i meant to say – i apologize for the mistake. That was the capital gains rate under Clinton before he reduced it to further. Charlie Gibson’s question on capital gains tax rates was answered by Obama saying that it wont be any higher than 28% – but that does not mean it would be exactly that figure.
Accroding to you his proposal is for a 20% rate – i will take you at your word. That would be increase of 6%. Who wants to INCREASE the capital gains tax in an economy that Obama has been claiming is fundamentally weak? And this debate was in April.
I dont care what your political affiliation is but please explain to me how exactly a capital gains tax rate increase make sense?
“As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ‘surge’ has been successful.”
Your ignorance on Iraq is ASTOUNDING. The surge originated in the Anbar province – which is a Sunni dominated province. The Sunni tribes were fed up with the barbaric nature of AQI and decided to fight back. American troops backed up the Sunni’s in their fight. AQI was routed. This has NOTHING to do with ethnic cleansing. I am not saying that this cleansing did not happen – it did happen after the Samarrah mosque bombing in early 2006.
You cannot “pay off” to get peace.Sunni’s volunteered to stand guard for their communities against AQI. Yes the US is compensating them for their service – but you make it sound as though they are mercenaries who will readily jump ship if AQI pays them more.
Sunni tribes rejected Sunni AQI - and fought them tooth and nail by siding with what was earlier perceived as a Christian Crusading Army. And that too after the horros of Abu Ghraib . You dont seem to have ANY appreciation for the significance of what has happened here.
In the month of May – Chicago had more homicide victims than terror related Victims in Iraq. That is a stunning piece of statistic in a country that supposedly already “lost”.
“I’m not saying that the Administration wasn’t smart enough to understand what would happen. I’m just saying that it makes me upset that they didn’t care. Their post war planning was literally non existent. Had it been otherwise thousands of people wouldn’t have murdered each other.”
I dont know of any one who will defend the post war planning of this Administration. I share your anguish on the innocent lives that were lost here and that which could have been avoided.
But if you are going to dwell on the past, what do you do about the present and the future ? Thankfully, the administration changed its strategy with the surge and backed the military at a time when every one was declaring the war lost.
Btw, just because i am critical of Obama does not make a supporter of the initial war strategy – i hope you dont make that assumption.
My major GRIPE with Obama is how he tries to pass of his shallow knowledge of the Shia/Sunni history AS some deep thought in a country which knows VERY LITTLE about the Islamic faith and Islamic history. And how he uses it to show his “judgement”. That is a patently laughable claim and insults the intelligence of people who actually KNOW Islamic history and its religion – people like me who come from a country that has 150 million Muslims.
I can also see that you have a condescending attitude to the fact that Shias and Sunnis have co-existed in Iraq for a long,long time. You have a simplistic notion that ethnic cleansing contributed to it.
If that is indeed the case, what sense does it make for the minority Sunnis to join the Shias in Government ? Isnt it strange that the two tribes who according to you have “cleansed” and killed each other are partners in a Government ?
Please DONT paint a broad brush on a people whom you know very little about. You wouldnt like if some foreigners made some racist remarks about African Americans being lazy because they figured that a few of them lived on welfare, would you ?
10:13 pm
Chuck Tucson,
Here are two articles that talk about the progress made in Iraq
http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2008/09/definitely-mayb.html
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/iraqs_latest_milestone_131215.htm
Wonder what happens when “intelligent” people read it – how could Sunnis and Shias work together on a legislation that okays provincial elections ?
Heck, they have shown more co-operation than the Democrat and Republican parties have.
And they did it without any help from “lightworkers” – you know the kind of people who will bring “post partisanship”.
Salaam Iraq.
1:16 am
Nagarajan Sivakumar,
“Accroding to you his proposal is for a 20% rate – i will take you at your word. That would be increase of 6%. Who wants to INCREASE the capital gains tax in an economy that Obama has been claiming is fundamentally weak? And this debate was in April.”
You can take my word for it, but all I can do is take his word for it. That is the number that is literally written in his tax policy. Again, whether or not he holds to that promise is another thing entirely. Incidentally, with the current state of affairs, it might be a long while before the capital gains tax really means a whole lot to anyone.
“I dont care what your political affiliation is but please explain to me how exactly a capital gains tax rate increase make sense?”
Wars don’t pay for themselves man. The money’s got to come from somewhere. Well… unless you control the printing press. Then deficits don’t matter, right? That’s working out really well for us.
“As far as the Sunni/Shia go, they have ethnically cleansed themselves into coexistence. One of the primary reasons that the ‘surge’ has been successful.”
“Your ignorance on Iraq is ASTOUNDING.”
Meh. I read a lot.
“The surge originated in the Anbar province – which is a Sunni dominated province. The Sunni tribes were fed up with the barbaric nature of AQI and decided to fight back. American troops backed up the Sunni’s in their fight. AQI was routed. This has NOTHING to do with ethnic cleansing.”
Of course it had nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. As you said, it was a Sunni dominated province. There weren’t a whole lot of Shia to cleanse.
” I am not saying that this cleansing did not happen – it did happen after the Samarrah mosque bombing in early 2006.”
Perhaps you’re forgetting about other parts of the country. Namely Baghdad. Baghdad was dissected, piece by entrails covered piece until what was left were ethnically cleansed neighborhoods. The U.S. basically looked the other way until the neighborhoods were ‘purified’. When that was over, patrols were a lot smoother.
“You cannot “pay off” to get peace.”
Agreed. But you can pay off to get people to stop shooting at you and blowing you up temporarily.
“Sunni’s volunteered to stand guard for their communities against AQI. Yes the US is compensating them for their service – but you make it sound as though they are mercenaries who will readily jump ship if AQI pays them more.”
Right. The US is paying them to both kill AQI and to stop blowing up our soldiers. Obviously money well spent. The Surge wasn’t just a surge in troop levels. It was a surge in cash as well.
“Sunni tribes rejected Sunni AQI - and fought them tooth and nail by siding with what was earlier perceived as a Christian Crusading Army. And that too after the horros of Abu Ghraib . You dont seem to have ANY appreciation for the significance of what has happened here.”
Oh no, I do appreciate that the Sunni’s hate AQI. I think that’s awesome. I don’t really think the Sunnis hate them because they fight the US, which the Sunnis were doing until we started giving them money. No, they hate AQI because AQI was blowing up Sunnis while trying to blow up Americans, and not caring. So, with AQI blowing up Sunnis AND Americans, Sunnis were understandably pissed off. Mostly about the Sunni part though.
“In the month of May – Chicago had more homicide victims than terror related Victims in Iraq. That is a stunning piece of statistic in a country that supposedly already “lost”.”
I completely, 100% agree with you. Chicago’s homicide rate is horrible and embarrassing.
“I dont know of any one who will defend the post war planning of this Administration. I share your anguish on the innocent lives that were lost here and that which could have been avoided.”
I love it when we agree.
“But if you are going to dwell on the past, what do you do about the present and the future ? Thankfully, the administration changed its strategy with the surge and backed the military at a time when every one was declaring the war lost.”
Here’s my problem. I don’t know what it would mean to “Win” in Iraq. How do you define victory? We’ll spend 3 TRILLION dollars for this thing in the end. Thousands and thousands of Americans are dead, maimed, or mentally damaged forever. We know we were lied into this war. When will it be possible to say we’ve won? Saddam is gone. Have we won? There is a fledgling pseudo-democracy. Have we won? Oil is being pumped a little faster into the commodity market. Have we won? Seriously… what does it mean to win in Iraq? I have no idea.
“Btw, just because i am critical of Obama does not make a supporter of the initial war strategy – i hope you dont make that assumption.”
I did, and I apologize.
“My major GRIPE with Obama is how he tries to pass of his shallow knowledge of the Shia/Sunni history AS some deep thought in a country which knows VERY LITTLE about the Islamic faith and Islamic history. And how he uses it to show his “judgement”. That is a patently laughable claim and insults the intelligence of people who actually KNOW Islamic history and its religion – people like me who come from a country that has 150 million Muslims.”
Ok.
“I can also see that you have a condescending attitude to the fact that Shias and Sunnis have co-existed in Iraq for a long,long time. You have a simplistic notion that ethnic cleansing contributed to it.”
From what I have gathered in my reading, Shias and Sunnis co-exist in the presence of overwhelming force. Without that force, be it Saddam, or otherwise, chaos and bloodletting ensue until divisions of bodies separate the two and some brutal force restores order. Now, I do agree that the chaos eventually leads to co-existence, but I don’t agree that the ethnic cleansing is the best path to it. Baghdad is a perfect example.
“If that is indeed the case, what sense does it make for the minority Sunnis to join the Shias in Government ? Isnt it strange that the two tribes who according to you have “cleansed” and killed each other are partners in a Government ?”
It makes perfect sense because while the Sunnis are the minority, it’s not like they are powerless. They want a piece of the pie too, so are willing to cooperate.
“Please DONT paint a broad brush on a people whom you know very little about. You wouldnt like if some foreigners made some racist remarks about African Americans being lazy because they figured that a few of them lived on welfare, would you ?”
Come on. Foreigners make remarks constantly about Americans of all walks. That’s a distraction. I’ve said nothing like that about Sunnis and Shia. I’m not using a broad brush here. I’m relating what I’ve observed via research regarding the situation past and present in Iraq.
I hope that one day a wonderful democracy emerges in that country and they stop killing and blowing stuff up. However, even if that does happen, I don’t think it will ever be worth the price in money and lives we Americans have paid to make it happen. That is, of course, my opinion though.
8:11 pm
Chuck,
Well may be we should exchange our e-mails or something – but i dont think its a great idea on the Internet.
1.”Wars don’t pay for themselves man. The money’s got to come from somewhere. Well… unless you control the printing press. Then deficits don’t matter, right? That’s working out really well for us.”
Most definitely, they dont. My contention is that increasing the capital gains tax will be a further deterrent for people to get into the market. The hope in increasing these taxes is to ultimately increase revenue. But would they ? Thats pretty questionable.
Another thing that most people dont consider other than reflexive tax increases is the 1000 pound gorilla – spending. What are our priorities and what is spending that can and should be limited if not completely eliminated ? How much would this save the Government?
I have not seen any one even talk of a comparative study between reducing spending and increasing taxes – what about the Medicare benefits expansion that Bush signed into law four years back ?- this needs to be repealed. What about the larded farm subsidies – there was a 300 million monster bill they passed five months back.
Right now, the situation looks bleak and if these morons in Congress dont do a thing by this week, the discussion on capital gains would be rendered moot.
2.”From what I have gathered in my reading, Shias and Sunnis co-exist in the presence of overwhelming force. Without that force, be it Saddam, or otherwise, chaos and bloodletting ensue until divisions of bodies separate the two and some brutal force restores order.”
Thank you for prefacing your comments with “from what I have gathered in my reading” – i dont want get into a diatribe on the reporting in the MSM about the relationship between these two communities- that would be a long conversation in itself.I dont know how many other sources that you relied on other than the MSM.
The best analogy that i can come up with is the relationship between Catholics and Protestants – it has been tense, some times very bloody, idealogical – and yet it has progressed to a state where both these sects have co-existed with out being at each others throats.
I hope you dont confuse the extremists in Sunni and Shia societies with their entire communities themselves. Where is that great protector of Shias Al-Sadr now ? Some where in Iran. AQI has been defeated by the Sunnis.
We will agree to disagree on the reasons for surge’s success or the Sunni/Shia dynamic. I for one am completely thrilled by the progress that the Iraqis have made. This was supposed to be impossible.
3.”Here’s my problem. I don’t know what it would mean to “Win” in Iraq. How do you define victory? We’ll spend 3 TRILLION dollars for this thing in the end. Thousands and thousands of Americans are dead, maimed, or mentally damaged forever. We know we were lied into this war. When will it be possible to say we’ve won? Saddam is gone. Have we won? There is a fledgling pseudo-democracy. Have we won? Oil is being pumped a little faster into the commodity market. Have we won? Seriously… what does it mean to win in Iraq? I have no idea.”
These were the exact questions i had in mind back in 2004 when i backed Kerry against Bush.
“We know we were lied into the war”
This would take a long long argument – i am not really up for it. But i wont blame you for having this position. I has the EXACT position four years back.
I will just end by saying what victory means – if the US succeeds in bringing continued stability over the next 5 years and Iraq transitions into a peaceful democracy, the sacrifices made by your country’s soldiers would be WORTH every ounce of blood.
Democracies are very difficult and messy to arrive at. I am speaking from an Indian perspective here – in 1947, when India became free, NO ONE gave us a chance to remain a democracy. Heck, there were times when we doubted this ourselves. But we persevered. against some really huge odds. People in India never lost faith in the idea of democracy itself – after a millenia of being occupied by Islamic and British empires.
For the Iraqis who have been delivered from the brutal tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I hope that they never forget this – their freedom now for all its accompanying tragedies is some thing they can build on. It is in their hands, ultimately.
US occupation of Iraq is most defintely not going to be infinite. It CANT BE. But at the same time, i see signs that the Iraqis are starting to take things into their own hands.
So this is what i can tell you, a war weary anguished American who asks the question ” why have we lost thousands of lives, maimed thousands more when we dont even know what victory is” ?
A moderate and fledgling Arab democracy in the heart of the Arab world won through the sacrifce of Americans and Iraqis (lets not forget how many Iraqis have died ) is some thing to feel immensely proud about.
The American military is something to be really proud of – i am not saying this as some form of consolation to compensate for the terrible mismanagement of the war. They have fought some insormountable odds and have given Iraq hope for the future.
Hope and Change is some thing Iraqis love too .