The Marines who took part in what the military itself is calling the “unjustified killing” of civilians at Haditha last November may as well plead guilty and throw themselves on the mercy of the court.
Better yet, why bother with a trial at all? John Murtha has them tried and convicted already and has announced that a cover-up took place and that the incident is “worse than Abu Ghraib.” And the netnuts, whose skepticism about everything the military says about Iraq seems to have magically disappeared overnight, are trying to compare the 24 civilians who may have been executed by as few as 4 Marines with the more than 240 civilians who were massacred by an entire company in Viet Nam at My Lai. We can forgive them their wild exaggeration because, after all, their hearts are in the right place, even if the facts regarding Haditha are still hidden from everyone. Those facts include the other side of the story, which, if you’re a liberal, isn’t as important as using the incident to reveal some “larger truth” about America and the war. Not exactly clear what that truth is quite yet but give them time, they’re still working on it.
It may very well turn out that the Marines are guilty of unspeakable war crimes and deserving of the harshest punishment imaginable – death by firing squad. Then again, it may turn out that all is not as it appears on the surface and that other mitigating factors will be revealed that could alter our perception of the event. The point is we just don’t know. And this makes all the handwringing on the right and gloating on the left a little hard to understand – especially when one considers the fact that in the past, Iraqis in insurgent strongholds like Haditha have been notoriously inaccurate about relating events surrounding military actions.
Are we getting the whole story from the “eyewitnesses” in Haditha? In fact, if you read media stories of the events that tragic day, one is left with the distinct impression that much of the information comes to us via hearsay – someone is telling a story of what happened based on a story told to them by an eyewitness (we think). Remember that the military, for whatever reason, didn’t begin this investigation until 4 months after the events took place. Is it possible that at least some of the lurid details that have leaked out are incorrect?
Holding one’s condemnation until more facts are revealed is not denying that the incident took place. We used to call this “common sense” – that is, before such silly notions were dispensed with by bloggers who have acquired psychic abilities that enable them to see into other men’s souls not to mention glean details that are unavailable to the rest of us. US military investigators experience with Iraqi eyewitnesses has been extraordinarily uneven, to put the best possible face on it. Remember Guiliana Sgrena, the kidnapped Italian “journalist who claimed tanks fired on her car killing the Italian agent who helped free her? The Iraqi driver swore he was only going 20 MPH when approaching the checkpoint. An investigation revealed he was going 50 MPH. Was the driver lying or was he simply wrong?
The incident I described in my post yesterday at Ishaqi where Iraqis claimed that 11 Iraqis were murdered by US soldiers contains bloodcurdling “eyewitness” accounts of the soldiers executing the Iraqis in cold blood. There are even photographs of the dead at the Tikrit morgue as well as statements from Iraqis that all of the dead, including children, died of gunshot wounds to the head.
The later investigation revealed that insurgents used some civilians as human shields as the Americans moved in and that some civilians died when the house caught fire. It is believed that a few of the insurgents escaped, executing other civilians as they fled.
The fact is, Ishaqi is an insurgent hotbed and some of those statements may have been the direct result of an al Qaeda in Iraq disinformation campaign carried out by sympathizers. And here we have a similar situation in Haditha, a town that has been in the grip of insurgents since the war began. Who do we believe? Who do we trust? Do we automatically take what is told to us by locals whose brothers, fathers, or relatives may be part of the insurgency?
Clearly something happened in Haditha that military investigators believe constitutes a war crime. But until we start to get leaks from the other side of this story, or until we hear what the Marines believed was going on in open court, I prefer to withhold my guilty verdict and instead, pronounce myself troubled about both what the Marines did to civilians and what higher ups may have done to the truth.
UPDATE
Time Magazine is reporting that some of the Marines who took part in the massacre are rolling over on their fellow Marines:
A military source in Iraq says the men of Kilo Company stuck by their story throughout the initial inquiry, but what they told the first military investigator raised suspicions. One of the most glaring discrepancies involved the shooting of the four students and the taxi driver. “They had no weapons, they didn’t show hostile intent, so why shoot them?” the military source says. Khaled Raseef, a spokesman for the victims’ relatives, says U.S. military investigators visited the alleged massacre sites 15 times and “asked detailed questions, examined each bullet hole and burn mark and took all sorts of measurements. In the end, they brought all the survivors to the homes and did a mock-up of the Marines’ movements.” As the detectives found contradictions in the Marines’ account, “the official story fell apart and people started rolling on each other,” says the military source. (HT: Michelle Malkin)
Needless to say, it appears the investigation has progressed past the point of local eyewitness accounts and is now focusing on actual discrepancies in statements made by the Marines involved.
Just as importantly, it appears that a cover-up occurred that goes up the chain of command to at least the battallion level. It is my understanding (and someone correct me if I’m wrong) that battallion commanders have at their disposal funds that they can disburse for reconstruction but that in this case, appear to have been used to compensate victims’ families of the massacre. If true then the nature of the attack on civilians that day was probably falsified at almost the highest levels of command.
Is the war effort going to be further undermined because of the actions of 13 out of the hundreds of thousands of honorable men and women who have sacrificed so much, given so much, endured so much in this cause? Can the lickspittles who couldn’t give a good goddamn about the Iraqi people or our military and who only want to hang George Bush and see this incident as another way to attack their political enemies be allowed to make Haditha a code word for failure?
Not if I have anything to say about it.
UPDATE II
Many thanks to all those who pointed out the double negative in my last paragraph above. I have changed the wording from “be prevented from making ” to “be allowed to make.”
Now it makes a little more sense – but I hope my intent was clear nonetheless.
10:30 am
While I agree that rushing to judgement is wrong, let’s face it- it occurs on both sides of the political spectrum. The phony story about Iran requiring Jews to wear colored stripes flew around the intenet at light speed and many (including our own government) condemmed Iran for something that was not true.
10:38 am
great point Gregdn, after all it would be a travesty to accuse the Iranian regime of bigotry.
11:30 am
Good lord, is the “badges in Iran phoney story” now become a leftist talking point? I see it being used in so many places without any historical background. There WAS a new dresscode enacted into law to distinguish moslems from non-moslems, but how it is to be implemented has not be decided yet—- and for close to THREE HUNDRED YEARS Jews wore forced to wear badges to publicly identify themselves. So excuse if people believed the reports of a Islamist Totalitarian regime that publicly beats the crap out of women who paint their fingernails or let a wisp of hair escape their headscarf of reinstituting laws that existed up until the 1920’s.
What is happening now with the Haditha incident is akin to what happens any time a police officer is accused of “brutality”. Facts and investigation goes by the wayside in a huge avalanche of “they are all like that!” giddiness. From Murtha playing the Nifong card to the ramblings of “cover up”, the anti-military, “anti-war” agenda salivates over any hint of wrong doing. It matters not that US military has been scrupulous to the point of putting their own members at higher risks to avoid civilian casualities … it matters not that US military personnel have engaged in community efforts in rebuilding schools, hospitals, taking sick and injured Iraqis for medical treatment, working with children, etc … all that matters is in three years time there might be an incident by which they can preen about the US military being “proven” as full of nothing but “dropouts and losers who can’t get real jobs” being turned into “killbots”.
Anyone that says such to me is going to get slapped in the face.
11:34 am
Yes Rick, you are just so damn fair and reasonable. Lets not dare say a word about all of this until every last detail is uncovered, and the testimony of those charged (once they are charged) is given full consideration.
Looking forward to you applying this standard as a general rule when any sort of charge is leveled against anyone.
Aint holding my breath though.
11:36 am
You are the most consistent generalizer and exaggerator who comments here. I cannot think of one time you have ever had a nuanced thought or been able to glean a different perspective that deviates from your own ridiculously shallow and stunted thinking.
You’re pathetic.
11:40 am
Rick:
You say “Can the lickspittles… be prevented from making Haditha a code word for failure?
Not while… ”
You mean can they be allowed, not prevented.
11:40 am
Still, it appears we have children killed execution style here. It’s best not to jump to conclusions, but this is not the way to win a war.
12:36 pm
Pride And Prejudice
Obviously, the latest developments in the military investigation are fueled by chilling echoes of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, used to discredit our sacrifices in Vietnam. The anti-war mongers are perversely excited at the prospect of hitting anothe…
12:45 pm
rick – excellent post. i think miss grundy is correct, however.
you need to switch out the words
“prevented from making” with “allowed to make.”
then the graph will have the desired effect.
1:04 pm
BC
Anyone one here or anywhere that says IF it turns out a crime was committed we should NOT prosecute?
Let’s please keep the strawpeople out of the argument, shall we?
1:08 pm
An Honorable Memorial Day To All:
> Is the war effort going to be further undermined
> because of the actions of 13 out of the hundreds
> of thousands of honorable men and women who have
> sacrificed so much, given so much, endured so much
> in this cause?
It’s more than disingenuous for war critics to latch on to the crimes of a renegade group of soldiers or civilians. For good or ill, these are human beings, not robots (as many anti-war folks sincerely regard soldiers), and incidents like this must be exacted in any war. A direct and truthful way to counter a backlash is to exact unabashed comparisons. During Russia’s Afghanistan War, exterminating entire villages (untold tens of thousands) was virtual policy to rout insurgents—with nary a peep of protest or ill will from the Western press or “Peace/Green/Humane” organizations. On this Memorial day, it amazes me of the oversight of both Iraq supporters and anti-war folks on the mercifully low price we’ve paid in this war to liberate over 50 million people. General Eisenhower and Churchill would’ve given their eyes and limbs to’ve conquered Nazi Europe with “only” less than 4,000 casualties and without blasting half of Europe’s forever lost historical landscape to dust.
Yes, war is hell and a hell of a solution, but too often there are no alternatives but slavery or a grave. There some problems you can’t wish Mother Nature to make better and “go away.”
James Greenidge
1:31 pm
[...] Rick Moran also weighs in on the matter and I largely agree with him. If these Marines are guilty, let them be punished. It’s not an issue of to punish or not to punish, but rather an issue of wanting to believe that the Marines we all know and are friends with could not have done something like what has been reported. [...]
1:42 pm
First its chef then its Gregdn, I guess some of that mullah love is infectious.
You know there is a history of American fighting men altering the ROE depending on how the enemy fights and treats POWs. It was the Japanese that disregarded all Geneva conventions and everybody knew it from the Bataan Death March to the torture and execution of Doolittle’s raiders. We didn’t take Jap prisoners. After Malmedy, ditto for the Nazis.
Since My Lai is being thrown around, we should at least understand that as brutal as that was, it was the brutality of the inhabitants of that village that brought their calamity on their heads. Lt. Calley and his men had been torn apart from that same My Lai village previously (where after the ambush was finished there were only the inhabitants of My Lai in presence) and another time around was more than enough. In an environment where a mamasan with a baby carriage could more than likely spell IED than baby, where the Viet Cong combatants were of any age, either sex and none in uniform you have a situation where there are no Conventions that are in order and its protections are null and void. That is why the Army’s prosecution of Calley and his men was so deleterious and had to basically be forced upon it by the media and the oh so brave and precious “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh is Gonna Win” contingent of unwashed Left.
I don’t know what happened at Haditha, but the only cogent fact that I will consider before trial is that this unit had two- and three-tour Marines in it. I’ll worry whether they come home alive before I’ll consider the welfare of any Iraqi.
Perhaps Hugh Fitzgerald was right a day or two ago when he wrote that our warfighters are sick and tired of the PC way to fight this war and have come to believe that the war is just but the Iraqi people are not. Once again, soldiers and Marines know that captivity means torture and beheading and must make their brothers promise not to allow that to happen. Again, no uniforms, either sex or any age.
Besmirch and defile before charges are even filed by the secretary spreads is so ‘68. But without the sex, drugs and the Dixie Chicks, er, rock ‘n roll. Oh and the bravery of it all!
I agree with the war on terrorists and terror supporting states but have been wavering on the democracy project.
4:54 pm
What i find amazing, although not so much on this particular blog but on many other blogs, is the need to either defend or react with glee about the marines. What everyone seems to be over looking is the fact that 24 innocent Iraqi’s died. Marines and Insurgents go to war to kill and be killed, civilians don’t. If they were killed in cold blood then the Marines deserve everything they get and the remaining US forces will have an even fiercer fight on their hands as Iraqi tempers rightly get enraged. Let’s not wring our hands over the fate of a dozen marines while two dozen innocent people are dead.
5:44 pm
I know. Let’s do away with military tribunals, the brig, JAG, MPs, etc. I have no idea why we ever set up those services in our military because never before in the history of war have we needed them.
People need to get some perspective. I’ll loan you a cup if you are in need. If these marines are guilty, they will be punished and rightly so.
6:17 pm
” mitigating factors will be revealed that could alter our perception of the event.”
The 1 year old baby was armed to the teeth?
The 4 year old girl was about to build an IED?
6:21 pm
More than the one “one gun” found at the scene was being fired at them.
The men in the taxi cabs had guns and opened fire on them.
Surprise! Some of the “eyewitnesses” are insurgent sympathizers.
A thousand other details that you have uncritically digested like a moron are incorrect, exaggerated, overblown, or are lies.
Funny how idiots like you, who don’t believe the military when they talk about the good things happening in Iraq, all of a sudden become a true believer about the veracity of military spokespeople overnight.
Your conversion is welcome, albeit a little late.
6:40 pm
“What everyone seems to be over looking is the fact that 24 innocent Iraqi’s died…. If they were killed in cold blood then the Marines deserve everything they get”
Unless, of course, they were killed in cold blood by the jihadists. Or, for that matter, if they were killed not in cold blood, but while being used as shields by the jihadists. Chances are pretty good some were in each of the 3 categories, but we will probably never know for sure unless we get, on the one hand, proof that they were mostly shot by AK-47s, or on the other, confessions by the marines.
6:47 pm
Great post, Rick.
If some of our marines violated military law, I have confidence in the military justice system to deal with it. There have been severalother marines brought up on RIDICULOUS charges who have been totally acquitted.
Like you, I resent the trial by media and the implication that all of our military in Iraq are somehow `tainted’ by this, or that there is a larger conclusion to be drawn.
I especially resent it coming from Murtha, who has advised people not to serve in our military and who schmoozes with and champions Code Pink and a notorious anti-Semite, Cindy Sheehan. Code Pink are the people who gave $600,000 tothe terrorists in Faluja who were shooting at our troops and who stage `demonstrations’ in front of honorably wounded men at Walter Reed Hospital.
7:26 pm
“What everyone seems to be over looking is the fact that 24 innocent Iraqi’s died…. If they were killed in cold blood then the Marines deserve everything they getâ€
You mean by investigating it?
8:30 pm
Many Americans appear to know all they need to know to condemm the American military members involved in this incident. “”“”From Lucyp”“”“. Let’s not wring our hands over the fate of a dozen marines while two dozen innocent people are dead.”“”“””
No official investigations completed. Just blame the
US military. Why? Is there some reason to hate the US military so much?
Here’s a site that gives a lot of factual info about
American civilian deaths. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov
43,200 in 2005, 42,636 in 2004 and comparable numbers for years before that. Not killed by US Marines so I guess it just doesn’t matter.
11:02 pm
Rick,
I’m with you on how the anti/amerika/war/lefty/socialist/commie/enviormentalist’KosKid/Demo whako’s want to take this incident and make Murtha their “Mulla for The Movement”, seeing that Cinders has fallen out of favor.
WE know how bad the Bash/Bush Left-tards have no scrupples at all about using anything they call in hopes to topple the conservative regieme in this country. Oh yeah. As it’s been said, it’s not will we win the war in the Mi-East (which there are ton’s of stat’s to prove we are) it’s will we win in at home. The DBM (Drive By Media) is our greatest enemy in the states next to the wankers in the Demo party.
Look what happened at Abu. They pounded that daily. And there were other videos released that were supposed to have been worst than what was first released but we haven’t seen them and eventually the story died out. End of news cycle.
Now its this one from Haditha. Here is a pretty good unbiased article from the Guardian that tells the ugly face of Haditha:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1553969,00.html.
There is a lot of conjecture as to the what, who, where, and why of this whole situation. All of that will come out. I think a lot of us could make book that even if this was a heinous act and the LEFT was backing these guys you could all write the script yourselves as to how they would be reporting it. Totally different slant and bias. If these Marines are in fact gulity of the alleged charges then they will be dealt with by the law.
Either way as you stated Rick:”Is the war effort going to be further undermined because of the actions of 13 out of the hundreds of thousands of honorable men and women who have sacrificed so much, given so much, endured so much in this cause?”
May it never be. The Islamofacists can not win. They are not wining in Iraq or Afghanistan or throughout the Mid-East. We are justified in our war efforts and our country’s government has gone out of its way (like Club Gitmo) to fight a fair war. I couldn’t imagine all the extra ‘stuff’ that is put on our soldiers who are sent into a ‘Hell Hole’ and then have to be concercned about being nice. Don’t anyone take that as my saying it’s OK to commit atrocities. NO. NO. NO. It is not! But in most cases they are justified in their force.
We hope for the best from this whole situation and for all those who have been accused.
6:24 am
Rush to judment? Kinda like the “detainees” at Guantanamo?? How many have been charged with anything?? You righties are hysterically funny in your double speak,and your hypocrisy.
9:42 am
I put this post up on B-5 yesterday and it looks as though it
is needed here…I had a t-shirt back in 75 which stated “Vietnam
if you wern’t there keep your mouth shut”...It was true then and
it is just a true today…And for you Hugh, a good friend of mine
spent last year at Gitmo and said it makes you sick as we do
everything but kiss the ass of those prisoners,the get their
special food, clean clothes along with their prayer rugs and
he said the press doesn’t want to hear this, all they want is the
bad BS…
9:53 am
Seems that the left salivates over all bad news for the U. S. Cannot for the life of me understand this thought process.
1:12 pm
Hugh sez:
We would rather like to release the terrorist scum from Gitmo but our Adopt-A-Terrorist program hasn’t been faring too well. Perhaps you can actually be the first in something and step right up and volunteer yourself (if your Mom doesn’t mind another freeloader in the house). No worries for you though. As we have plainly seen with the fearless and like totally innocent Zacharias Moussawi, the bravado lasts a measly 24 hours after sentencing. Then its bitch city and a veil of tears.
As far as being “hysterically funny,” there is vacuum there, you know? You took all the comedians and made them into your Pontiffs of Knowledge and Enlightenment. No wait, Bill Maher was never funny and you would know that if you made it into long pants.
Oh yeah, we do have an acquired skill that you lefties never master. Its called reading comprehension. And, we spell gud two,.?!
1:53 pm
¨¨¨´Rush to Judgement—Never even told what the charges ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html 47,283,923 killed since 1973 with no hearings. Those held at Guantanamo are still alive.
4:11 pm
Badge:
An intelligent, insightful response. Thank you. What are you? 12?
4:47 pm
Hugh sez:
You’re welcome. I am a rightwinger, silly you. You want to know my age? Why, are you trolling for dates?
If so, have you met chef or Gregdn? You know, they throw one helluva Feast of Hitler and the Mufti. Maybe you can mix and mingle.
8:39 pm
Ongoing Investigations Into Haditha Incident
If the facts and evidence bears out the need to harshly punish those involved, then that must be done. At the same time, we should not let members of Congress with an agenda push this issue further and faster than the facts and evidence allows or dic…
2:53 pm
Let Them Do Their Job
Can people please stop speculating and accusing the Marines of “cold blooded murder” and let the investigators do their jobs?
3:25 pm
[...] Michelle Malkin Right Wing Nut House Flopping Aces Wizbang Blue Crab Boulevard Sister Toldjah Captain's Quarters UPDATE: Frau Budgie at Red Hot Cuppa Politics has a link to an interview with a Marine who was there that fateful day, but was injured before "the massacre" and said he had not witnessed any of the things the MSM is claiming. [...]
12:49 am
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