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11/2/2008
OBAMA BRAGS ABOUT BANKRUPTING COAL POWER PLANT COMPANIES

Change we can freeze to death by:

Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else’s out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.

These remarks were made by Obama on January 17 of this year. Not surprisingly this audio was hidden until now because the interview was with the far left San Francisco Chronicle.

Here’s the entire audio clip:


This illustrates better than anything the folly of “cap and trade” proposals. Obama plans to use his C&T plan as a gigantic club to beat up on power companies and coal companies (and the miners) if they don’t meet his arbitrary and capricious “targets” that drop every year regardless of any progress technologically in finding ways to mitigate the carbon output of power plants.

It will almost certainly cause a lot of smaller coal companies to either cut their work force as the demand for coal - our most abundant energy source - shrinks and probably drive a lot of these smaller concerns out of business.

And what about his gloating about driving businesses to bankruptcy? Has there ever been a presidential candidate who looked forward to the prospect of destroying someone’s life’s work and costing thousands of people their jobs?

But at least the Euro-twits pushing Global Warming won’t be mad at us anymore.

This blog post originally appears in the American Thinker.

By: Rick Moran at 10:22 am
51 Responses to “OBAMA BRAGS ABOUT BANKRUPTING COAL POWER PLANT COMPANIES”
  1. 1
    Nagarajan Sivakumar Said:
    11:41 am 

    An yet he is poised to win comfortably.Demographic changes in VA, CO, are going to continue favoring the Dems in coming elections - re-districting in the next 2 years are going to make things even better for them.

    Hello Wilderness. Is George W Bush the best thing to have happened to the Democrat party since FDR or what?

    Not all Bush’s fault (but it is pretty easy to blame him). The country has been moving further left for a while. We are getting used to asking government for stuff our grandparents would never have dreamed of. And since Democrats seem willing to give it to them, they are electing more of them.

    ed

  2. 2
    mark30339 Said:
    11:48 am 

    GE/NBC stands to profit big time if power plants have to buy the carbon credits GE scarfed up. Al Gore does too. What’s the over/under on how much an Obama “blind” trust makes on its carbon credit investments? Maybe it’s a structured like Hillary’s cattle futures. Maybe its structured like Bill Clinton’s long term speaking and appearance fees. Maybe its dings on all those unverified credit cards — who can say whether the Obama campaign is the only merchant ringing up charges there. I wonder how many AUDACITY ebooks have been charged on those cards. As Rick says, these guys are good at covering tracks, and the MSM will never masquerade as CSI. The blogosphere better put on a Superman cape and come to America’s rescue.

  3. 3
    ChenZhen Said:
    12:02 pm 

    Re: not Bush’s fault

    Do you think the nation would be poised to sweep in Dems right now if Kerry had won in ‘04?

  4. 4
    jpe Said:
    12:18 pm 

    Obama is describing a plan in which the coal industry would have to implement enviro measures.

    There’s nothing terribly controversial about that position.

  5. 5
    Darren Said:
    12:19 pm 

    I love how the carbon tax plan is supposed to bankrupt coal plants, but at the same time generate billions of dollars in taxes to support alternative energy. Why do people who propose these things never think beyond the first iteration, and assume static behavior?

    The simple thing to do is for the coal-fired generating companies to either a) pass along the carbon-tax costs to ratepayers (who will be none too pleased), or b) slow down power production dramatically. If PUCs say that power companies can’t pass on the costs, they will have little to no choice but to cut back on power production.

    At that point we will find out that the term ‘brownout’ has been a racist slur all along.

    There is always the possibility that all this is a rope-a-dope to make us fear how bad things could possibly be under an Obama Administration, with the idea that when they aren’t that bad we might join the bandwagon. I would actually be happier if this were the case, but my fear is that Barack Obama actually means these things. He actually believes that if we can make solar generation work at 15c/kWh we can sell it to the Chinese to replace the coal that costs them 6c/kWh or less. He actually believes that the European countries will spend another 1% of their GDP on defense so they can actually be field-effective for peacekeeping, simply because they like him. Sophistication in an opponent I can appreciate, but arrogance simply does not bode well.

    I think Mr Obama is going to be disappointed frequently, while events will probably continue to meet my incredibly low expectations.

  6. 6
    eaglewingz08 Said:
    12:29 pm 

    So Biden turns out to be right about Obama when he told the questioner at the red rope that Obama was against clean coal except for use in plants in China NOT the USA. The media had the tape of Obama in January 2008 but chose not to contrast Obama’s words in January 2008 (that’s not the Obama that the media once knew) with Biden’s not a month ago. Further this issue is critical to the coal states, all swing states this year, yet the media hid from them a critical and crucial issue and Obama’s position on their future employment, lives and prosperity in order to get a Socialist elected.
    I don’t blame Bush for what appears to be democrat gains (although I doubt Obama will win the White House this year), as children are programmed on so many levels that dems are better on the economy and care for the ordinary worker, that this is the default position most people even many republicans hold. It’s a constant battle to rid oneself of this brainwashing but it is achievable with effort.

    This may be the last gasp for the Dinosaur media, if we can prevent Obama from being elected now, in four years there won’t be enough liberal media around to cause this horror and hopefully ACORN will have been run out of business by McCain’s Justice Department under Rudy Giuliani.

  7. 7
    Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » Obama Tells SF Chronicle He Will Bankrupt Coal Industry Pinged With:
    12:36 pm 

    [...] Change we can freeze to death by! [...]

  8. 8
    Stop The ACLU Trackbacked With:
    12:39 pm 

    Shocking Audio: Obama Promises to Bankrupt Coal Industry…

    In the name of the almighty environmental movement…

    Gateway Pundit provides a partial transcript:
    Let me sort of describe my overall policy.
    What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not …

  9. 9
    A Blog For All Trackbacked With:
    12:47 pm 

    Obama Will Turn Out the Lights On Coal Industry…

    As a reminder, quite a few states rely on the coal industry, including Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky, Texas, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, and Montana. Coal also represents nearly 50% of all power produced in the nation….Let’s also conside….

  10. 10
    Obama Brags That He Will Bankrupt Coal Power Plants and the Entire Coal Industry | The Blog of Record Pinged With:
    12:58 pm 

    [...] (Via Rightwing Nuthouse.) [...]

  11. 11
    michael reynolds Said:
    1:31 pm 

    That’ll teach West Virginia to go red.

  12. 12
    Nagarajan Sivakumar Said:
    1:34 pm 

    jpe,
    “Obama is describing a plan in which the coal industry would have to implement enviro measures.There’s nothing terribly controversial about that position.”

    It is not controversial to you now - when coal companies either pass on the costs right back to your electricity bill or find that they just have to reduce transmission/capacity so that they dont hemorraghe revenue, let’s see how you ‘ll feel. When more jobs are lost because coal companies cannot operate any more, let us see how controversial things will get.

    The Government creating artifical markets for cap and trade will be the BIGGEST boondoggle ever - Fannie Mae will look trivial by comparision. And there could never be a WORSE time than now to implement such artifical regulations, increase capital gains taxes etc

    I hope that Obama’s economic advisers are sensible enough to tell him that his campaign rhetoric should be just that - mere rhetoric. But given how incredibly boneheaded and arrogant Obama can be when it comes to economic policy and growth, i am not exactly holding my breath.

  13. 13
    emgersh Said:
    1:48 pm 

    “But at least the Euro-twits pushing Global Warming won’t be mad at us anymore.”

    Sooo, global warming is a Euro-conspiracy?

    Sooo it might be a good idea to read what I’ve written about global warming before making an ass of yourself.

    http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2008/03/02/climate-change-or-just-a-stretch-of-bad-weather/

    No conspiracy - unless you include anti-science liberals who want to cut off scientific debate that thousands of scientists want to engage in.

    ed.

  14. 14
    M. Wilcox Said:
    2:49 pm 

    Obama understands Electric companies pass on tax increases to the consumers as a back end consumption tax.
    Why doesn’t he understand the same principal works on all business, with the worst part being foreign goods being exempt in our demestic market and decreased demand for the artificially inflated priced American goods overseas.

  15. 15
    shocking audio: Obama said he will bankrupt the coal industry… – Political Byline Pinged With:
    3:24 pm 

    [...] Michelle Malkin, Right Wing Nut House, Wizbang, Wake up America, Shopfloor, Right Wing News, BizzyBlog, Moonbattery, A Blog For All, [...]

  16. 16
    Shelby Said:
    4:08 pm 

    Wow, I’m speechless. This is what happens when good intentions create very bad ideas. I hope this isn’t a preview of the next four years.

  17. 17
    TheAngryRabbit Said:
    4:15 pm 

    I don’t get where you are going with this story. What the author fails to mentioned is Obama’s push to bring jobs back to America, limit outsourcing, and create/increase alternative energy businesses & jobs.

    So in that context, yeah, goodbye coal. The net change is jobs will be positive AND longterm.

    What possible incentives will there be - none presented by Obama - to “bring jobs back to America.? Companies like it fine doing business in countries that are low tax, low regulatory environments. The only thing Obama will succeed in doing is causing companies to close their doors in America altogether and operate overseas entirely.

    What Obama and the liberals don’t understand is that for every restriction you put on a company, there is a response - either they hire fewer employees, do less business in America, or leave altogether.

    And “create alternative energy businesses?” There is absolutely no evidence that any such companies will be “created” as a result of any “investment” (tax dollars given to mad energy schemes)in alternative energies. Such a dividend would happen naturally if the government would keep their great big paws off the energy industry. Does government know better how to deliver energy to people? If you think so, vote for Obama and wait for the brownouts.

    ed.

  18. 18
    Antimedia Said:
    4:30 pm 

    “Obama understands Electric companies pass on tax increases to the consumers as a back end consumption tax.
    Why doesn’t he understand the same principal works on all business, with the worst part being foreign goods being exempt in our demestic market and decreased demand for the artificially inflated priced American goods overseas.”

    He does understand it. He just told you so. He just doesn’t care. His plan would destroy the poor in this country. Electricity is a basic need, and no one would be hurt worse than the poor if rates “skyrocket” (as Obama puts it in the same interview.) But he could care less about the poor. He only cares about “doing what’s right”, which is to turn the government into a giant enforcement agency that compels the people to do the same right thing he wants them to do.

    The real question is, why don’t Americans understand that?

  19. 19
    freeus Said:
    4:49 pm 

    Apparently Sarah Palin got the memo and is bashing Obama over the head with this. LOL!

    Love the headline Rick! LMAO! I guess this would be a good reason to stock up on some good bourbon for the winter if you think Obama might win!

    This is going to be killah in PA, OH, WV, VA and well just everywhere. For those of you that do not get it, just remember what Biden said in the rope line about coal. This seems to back up Joe, and makes him look not so loony. Maybe there is something to back up his comments about Obama being tested when it comes to foreign affairs. So far, Joe the Gaffetastic Gaffemaster is shooting us straight when it comes to his running mate!

    And for you negative naybobs, I smell a McCain victory! Insert smiley face here!

  20. 20
    Brad Said:
    4:50 pm 

    I was talking with an Air Force officer yesterday. He happens to be black but is admittedly republican. This time he is going with obama. Sounded like the Palin pick was his main justification. We talked a bit about the race and I told him I was mostly worried about the SC justice picks. His response was that odds are the liberals will be replaced first due to age, etc.
    Point of that in relation to the coal issue is that he is basing his logic on “I don’t think he will go that far or change things that much” — leap of faith and picking which explanation Obama offers seems to be what the moderate Obama supporters are latching onto….

  21. 21
    HE HATE ME Said:
    5:00 pm 

    There are tech companies out there currently doing business making coal clean. China has licensed plants to convert coal to very clean gasoline at competitive prices of $35 a barrel.

    And Obama has insisted we will not import any products produced from the vast Canadian shale oil sands. So Canada says they are more than happy to export it to China.

    Clueless libtards don’t even want any oil exploration off-shore where in the Florida straits China working with Cuba will drill for oil, some of which will be close to Florida given the underground deposits’ locations. But have no fear as I imagine that the govt. will send checks to the fortunate ones deemed too poor to make up for the doubling of price of elctricity.

    Ralph Peters has a sarcastic look back at the Obama from 2012 in the NY Post. Obama shows what a great man he is by taking in most Jewish refugees after Iran nukes them and how $320 barrel oil at long last gives 3rd world countries adequate funds to improve citizens’ lives there.

    Even if electricity only doubles in cost one can well imagine how it would impact society. I hope there is a special place in hell for Obama, Pelosi and Reid. Thanks all you assclowns who buy into the BS. Hope the koolaid was tasty for you. And that Obama enjoys his pet poodle Chrissie matthews humping his leg.

  22. 22
    Robert Wegrzen Said:
    5:30 pm 

    Complacency about the possibility that CO2 emissions might make life on the planet unimaginably difficult for billions of people within a few generations seems to set the tone here. Everyone else is doing it!

    For an intellingent discussion of the business prospects for clean coal electricity production see PBS Frontline
    -
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/heat/etc/ceos.html

  23. 23
    MarkJ Said:
    6:02 pm 

    Question of the Day for Barack “Super Genius” Obama:

    How does one collect higher taxes from companies which have gone bankrupt and from workers who are unemployed?

  24. 24
    Sphere Said:
    6:04 pm 

    This entire thing is a bit silly. Most of the right wing blogosphere is currently screaming that Obama wants to “bankrupt the coal industry”. This is, of course, based upon an audio clip where Obama says no such thing. I’m not talking about the word “bankrupt.” I’m talking about the word “industry.” Obama is clearly talking about a market based cap and trade system that would make development of NEW dirty coal fired power plants unfeasible uneconomically: “So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it’s just that it will bankrupt them.” That is, after all, the point of cap and trade.

    Given that the debate on this ended a long time ago, and given the McCain also supports cap and trade, I don’t expect this to have traction with anyone but right wing bloggers. The only people who are going to be outraged by this are people who are looking hard for something to be outraged about.

  25. 25
    jpe Said:
    6:08 pm 

    Nagarajan: so you agree that this isn’t about Obama wanting to bankrupt the industry.

    That’s a step up from the hackishness that the GOPers have been desperately engaged in the last few days.

  26. 26
    Dennis D Said:
    7:26 pm 

    Sad or Funny?

    United Mine Workers Union endorsed Obama claiming he was from a ” Coal State”. I kid you not. Corrupt Unions screw the rank and file again.

    http://www.umwa.org/

  27. 27
    Common Sense Political Thought » Archives » Can Barack Obama really be this far-out whacko leftist? Pinged With:
    7:53 pm 

    [...] quote comes via Sister Toldjah, but Donald Douglas and the Gateway Pundit and Rick Moran and Sharon have all written about this. Of course, with election day just a day and a half away, it [...]

  28. 28
    P. Aaron Said:
    7:56 pm 

    If the big ‘O’ wins, there will still be alot of voting taking place:

    People will be voting with their feet, voting with their pocketbooks, their savings and investments. Some business-folks will be voting their bottom line.

    THE QUESTION: Will America be on the ballot?

  29. 29
    NIF Trackbacked With:
    10:24 pm 

    Coming down to the wire ……

    Vote, or don’t complain!…

  30. 30
    Chuck Tucson Said:
    1:32 am 

    Rick Said:

    “Does government know better how to deliver energy to people? If you think so, vote for Obama and wait for the brownouts.”

    More FUD from you. Enron Corporation already provided that for us. I trust the military (run by the government) to protect my country and it’s interests with bombs and nuclear weapons. I trust the government to ensure uninterrupted commerce, and kill (literally) anyone who gets in the way. Why on earth wouldn’t I trust them to regulate and run electricity generation?

    Oh, but now ask me “Where does it END?” Thanks for FUD Rick. Keep up the out of context nonsense. The past eight years have hardened me - for better or worse - against your fear spewing.

  31. 31
    revenantive Said:
    9:02 am 

    “clean coal” is one of the biggest jokes of the year. there is no such thing.

    look rick, i think you need to understand that to move forward in a way that won’t fuck up our environment (which would ultimately cost more in terms of human life and damages) we need to move on from coal as a power source. renewable is the only answer. wind, solar, geothermal, etc.

    every day coal plants run puts us closer to the brink of extinction. don’t believe it? look at the quickly deteriorating arctic and the scary condition of glaciers around the world. we are warming up very fast…and that’s going to cause more and more katrina’s, ike’s and other weather related disasters.

    the time to act is NOW. coal, sadly, must go. as a human race, we can’t afford to pollute our air and destroy mountains for a few years of cheap energy. we don’t have much time left. we have to cap and move on.

    Look - no responsible climate expert says that the danger is imminent - no one. Climate change - even “quick” climate change - takes decades to become noticeable. You are taking what are arguable occurrences (there are studies that show the Greenland glaciers growing as well as the polar ice cap) and extrapolating disaster. Its nuts. It’s why thinking, rational people are saying slow down. Temperatures have not risen on iota in a decade, models are off by as much as 50% as to how much CO2 we are putting in the atmosphere, and this rush to catastrophically cut emissions is being pushed by people who could care less about the environment but who care very much about destroying western industrialized civilization.

    Coal scrubbers technology is improving all the time. It would not surprise me if in a decade, we have answers that elude us today. To give up on the most abundant energy resource we have and give up trying to make it cleaner is just plain stupid.

    ed.

  32. 32
    independent76 Said:
    9:54 am 

    who really believes this country can provide the power we need without coal? I’m not talking about some utopia world that some seem to live in. I’m talking about powering cities like NY, Chicago and other mid-sized cities. Who here really believes we can really do that with just solar & windmills. I’ve been in the energy business for 15-years and this fallacy that we can meet our power demand with solar & windmills is laughable. I’m not saying we shouldn’t build these technologies because they will lessen dependence on coal and other non-green sources, but solar is a single application source, plus it is currently very expensive so the payoff time is very long. Wind is better, but it certainly can’t power large cities. Coal & nuclear are the only mass power production options for the US.

  33. 33
    Darren Said:
    11:39 am 

    Chuck Tucson,

    More FUD from you. Enron Corporation already provided that for us.

    Enron simply took advantage of the silliness of California’s government making stupid rules. California utilities could only by electricity on the spot market, day-to-day, and could not sign long-term contracts.

    Kaiser Aluminum in the Pacific Northwest had wisely signed a long-term electrical contract. The summer of the brownouts the difference between spot markets and long-term contracts got so bad that Kaiser shut down their smelters — they could make more money selling their contracted allotment of power to California than they could using it to make aluminum. The California electricity deregulation scheme was practically designed to fail, and if you can make a buck breaking a system then someone will. This is human nature.

    Independent76,

    Thanks for your words. Nukes and coal, with coal to get us to where we have enough nukes, wind and solar as they come along.

    Wind and solar advocates misunderstand the difference between evolutionary and revolutionary changes. You can make incremental improvements in technology, but it takes time and money. Revolutionary changes can’t be predicted and can’t be bought. IMO, it will take a revolutionary change in solar affordability and efficiency before we can really start taking homes off the coal-fired grid. Wind works, but not generally in the places where you need the power, and not all the time — so you have to spend a fortune in transmission costs and power-buffering battery or flywheel systems that aren’t even in production yet.

    Why am I not surprised that the Obama campaign logo is contains so much blue sky? It is simply a visual reflection of the rhetoric.

    Revolutionary changes can’t be predicted and can’t be bought.

    Precisely. The government modestly invested in the idea of computers back in the 1940’s and 50’s. But it took a private laboratory - Bell Labs - to come up with the silicon chip. And it was two guys working out of a garage that invented a computer for the home that everyone could use.

    Who woulda thunk it? Not some government bureaucrat that’s for sure.

  34. 34
    jackson1234 Said:
    11:49 am 

    I can’t decide which is worse: the rank stupidity of Obama’s remarks, or that a man about to be elected or nearly elected president would gladly bankrupt an industry vital to American survival. I don’t think anyone can honestly say at this point that they were surprised by these comments, but just to hear them confirms the worst about this bathetic man.

  35. 35
    jackson1234 Said:
    11:51 am 

    Rick: regarding your editor’s note at 31. I think it is precisely because clean coal technology is within a few years’ reach that there is such a push to close down the industry.

  36. 36
    emgersh Said:
    12:08 pm 

    “Dennis D Said:
    7:26 pm

    Sad or Funny?

    United Mine Workers Union endorsed Obama claiming he was from a ” Coal State”. I kid you not. Corrupt Unions screw the rank and file again.”

    So, you are saying these poor schmucks don’t know how to vote their own interest? Sounds like a familiar line Rick has lambasted more than once.

    Whatever, the article is a distortion of Obama’s comments and I wager Rick knows that better than anyone. He’s too bright not to know that.

    As others have pointed out, he’s talking about how a cap and trade program would make the establishment of NEW DIRTY OLD FASHIONED COAL PLANTS would be prohibitively expensive under such a system. Oddly, McCain is currently running ads using Obama’s praise of the McCain Lieberman bill proposing cap and trade. Where are you guys trying to go with this??? ;-)

  37. 37
    Pan_theFrog Said:
    12:20 pm 

    So as the cost of coal produced electric goes up, it leads to more demand for usage of solar, wind and water produced electric.

    Solar is getting more effective all the time (Can someone please use the desert next to LA for something useful?), same for water & wind (I just read about a system that use slower running water to produce electric. It is the type of system that could be place in 60% of the rivers in the US. For the cost of the Hoover Dam, enough of these could be deployed to produce 4 times as much electric). As these are being developed more and more the price to make them keeps dropping. Remember $800 calculators that you can now buy for $1?

  38. 38
    Pan_theFrog Said:
    12:27 pm 

    Asbostes used to be used in everything… and now it is not. If someone can make it ‘clean’ we can go back to using it. Till then why let it kill people?

    Same thing with coal.

  39. 39
    Pan_theFrog Said:
    12:34 pm 

    “Asbestos”
    Some days I can’t spell.

  40. 40
    Chuck Tucson Said:
    1:38 pm 

    “Who woulda thunk it? Not some government bureaucrat that’s for sure.”

    DARPA? Anyone? Unreal.

    And when did the internet become huge? When government ran it or when it morphed into something totally unexpected and revolutionary?

    The teeny tiny number of academics and experts who took advantage of the first stirrings of the internet have nothing to do with what the net is now. Are you actually stupid enough to argue that the internet would have become what it is today if it hadn’t grown far beyond what it was envisioned originally? It took businessmen - entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, dreamers - to make the net what it is today.

    And you’re saying the government had more than a tiny role in that? To coin a phrase, “unreal.”

    ed.

  41. 41
    HyperIon Said:
    3:18 pm 

    Sphere (#24) nailed it.

    This is yet another example of wingnuts going crazy over an imagined controversy. But please continue to gnash teeth and pull out hair. Ya look like idiots.

    Protip: Expending so much energy on imaginary issues like this (Obama is a Muslim, Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, Obama is a socialist) means more time in the wilderness for the repubs.

  42. 42
    ckerst Said:
    5:21 pm 

    You post lies based on comments taken out of context and think people are to stupid and lazy to see the truth. Keep up the good work, you’re burying the conservative movement.

  43. 43
    Darren Said:
    5:56 pm 

    Chuck,

    I think Rick is referring to the computer, not the Internet. Specifically he referred to the integrated circuit, a product of Fairchild and TI.

    Pan_theFrog,

    Coal is not as deadly as asbestos in and of itself, and it’s much easier to deal with for a variety of physical reasons than asbestos.

    What is most assuredly deadly, though, is the variety of things that occur when our society, accustomed to ubiquitous electricity, is suddenly deprived. We don’t live in the most temperate part of the planet and it gets exceptionally cold at times and warm at others, either extreme can kill. What will really start filling graves is something like foodborne illness, which could come from inadequate refrigeration, or waterborne illness from improperly treated drinking water.

    You are blithely ignoring real threats and cowering in front of imaginary ones, at least in the short-term. Nobody here wants to see coal plants still in operation 100 years from now, but just because the political will exists to see something done does not mean it immediately becomes physically or fiscally real. This is part of the problem with the political expediency of throwing money at difficulties, it breeds the expectation that throwing money always works. Seeing as it doesn’t even work in the social sciences, trying it on the physical end is even more doomed to failure.

    There’s also the issue that nitrogen trifluoride, used in the production of photovoltaic solar panels as well as most semiconductor electronics, is a wicked greenhouse gas. More solar panels, more NF3, more greenhouse effect, if you believe in that sort of thing.

    TANSTAFFL.

  44. 44
    Chuck Tucson Said:
    6:17 pm 

    “Are you actually stupid enough to argue that the internet would have become what it is today if it hadn’t grown far beyond what it was envisioned originally?”

    Of course not Rick. Your blanket statements about so called government bureaucrats not being able to “thunk it” was insulting and ignorant, especially to the people who actually did “thunk” it.

    The government is filled with people. Despite the jokes, they aren’t some foreign race of incompetent idiots. It’s just people. Our friends and Neighbors. Many of them are incredibly brilliant and very good at what they do. You diminish the intelligence and hard work of the scientists at DARPA and other agencies who created the foundation of what the internet has become.

    Private industry figured out a way to conduct commerce in new ways based on the robust foundation created by these so called bureaucrats. The government and academic experts have EVERYTHING to do with what it is today because they are the ones who took their invention beyond a defense industry niche when they moved beyond DARPA.

    The government bureaucrats created it Rick. They planted the seed. Government bureaucrats took it beyond that too. They showed everyone what was possible. The fact that other entrepreneurs figured out how to make more money off of was inevitable, and not really all that amazing.

    So, yes, the government had more than a tiny role in that. Way more. And it still wouldn’t work TODAY if it wasn’t for them safeguarding the incredibly robust system they created because it’s still the same foundation, built by government bureaucrats.

  45. 45
    Andy Said:
    6:23 pm 

    Chuck Tucson,

    DARPA doesn’t do any research itself. What it does is provide funds to academics and the private sector to do basic research in areas DARPA thinks will have military value. Only basic research.

  46. 46
    Nagarajan Sivakumar Said:
    9:13 pm 

    Chuck,
    “Private industry figured out a way to conduct commerce in new ways based on the robust foundation created by these so called bureaucrats. The government and academic experts have EVERYTHING to do with what it is today because they are the ones who took their invention beyond a defense industry niche when they moved beyond DARPA.”

    As some one who works in the software industry, it is amusing to hear people say that government and academic “experts” had everything (in all caps !!) to do with what the Internet is today.

    I dont want to pooh pooh the foundation that they laid, as you have rightly pointed out. it is nothing more than that - foundation, cable infrastructure etc But is a huuuuge stretch to say that they were the ones who moved it beyond the confines of military research.

    Private innovators came up with the desgin of the integrated circuit - the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT invention of the 20th century in the field of technology - without the IC, your computer does not have its computing power. it would be nothing more than a physical machine.

    Also, the phenomenal growth of programming languages/ OS software systems were due to the ingenuity of private inventors - this has very little if any to do with Government.

    Sorry to go offtrack here -as the topic was coal. But every time, i see people come to the defense of Government, i also see how over the top they get. And how they try to squelch the importance of private enterprise.

    It all looks so easy to say that industry “figured” out a way to do commerce - they rely on the work and genius of a few thousand innovators, spread across this country and the world. and no they are not connected by some great Govt bureaucracy or some Government plan.

    Private enterprise is the KEY to new energy technology - if Obama thinks that companies are not looking for new solutions and that Govt will solve this by throwing around money, he is even more stupid than what i thought. Then again, he is a liberal - so, how could Government not spend money ?

    When the hooey math Obama has cooked up to pay for his “plans” eventually comes crashing down, we will have to face the reckoning.

    There isnt a bigger joke than cap and trade.

  47. 47
    Nagarajan Sivakumar Said:
    9:29 pm 

    JPE,
    “Nagarajan: so you agree that this isn’t about Obama wanting to bankrupt the industry.”
    I am sorry JPE, but you should know this - your country relies on coal for 50% of its generated electric power. And yeah, there is no such thing as “clean” coal - there may be technologies to reduce the amount of carbon emissions that it makes - but coal in itself is any where between 50 to 100% carbon in mass. nothing can be done about that - its nature. We are talking about Coal for God’s sakes !

    When Obama says that new cap and trade rules will make sure that new coal fired power plants dont have a chance to survive, he is pretty much aiming for the coal industry to die. and let’s not forget these rules will also apply to coal plants THAT ARE EXISTING. If you are going to slap them with fines, they are going to stop reducing their capacity or eventually shut down.

    If Obama’s plans stop new coal fuelled power plants, restrict existing ones to the point that they will not continue to be in business, what do you call that ? “encouragement” ??

    “That’s a step up from the hackishness that the GOPers have been desperately engaged in the last few days.”

    Sorry ,but there is no hackery going on. People are genuinely concerned as to what will happen when career politicans start legislating nonsensencial laws that will kill the economy.

    In this respect, there is no difference between Obama and McCain - they really should not messing around with things that they have very little knowledge about.

    As Rick already pointed out, this global warming nonsense has been exaggerated greatly. Ultimately this has NOTHING to do with the environment or any such crap. This is aimed at bringing down economic growth and private enterprise.

    These fricking Greenpeaceniks are nothing more than socialists.

  48. 48
    Chuck Tucson Said:
    12:35 am 

    Nagarajan,

    “Private enterprise is the KEY to new energy technology – if Obama thinks that companies are not looking for new solutions and that Govt will solve this by throwing around money, he is even more stupid than what i thought.

    Nobody doubts this. You say this like someone’s going to argue with you. I code too. The point is, private enterprise is all about making money. I seriously doubt that Obama thinks companies aren’t looking for new revenue sources through alternative fuels. Nobody thinks that.

    “Then again, he is a liberal – so, how could Government not spend money ?”

    Please. If DARPA wasn’t throwing around money we would have missed out on a great deal of life changing technology, not to mention the most massively awesome military on the planet. Of all the government agencies, they’ve got it right when it comes to inventing. Incentives, grants, and prizes for inventions that help the country is a fantastic idea that works amazingly well. If Obama wanted to throw more money into this type of endeavor for alternative fuels, I’d be all for it.

  49. 49
    RonReagan Said:
    2:00 am 

    Socialism is not that bad. I have lived in it.

    You most likely have not.

    I actually prefer it to American capitalism

    (No…YOU move the Canada! I’m going to work to make this a free medicine country. )

  50. 50
    RonReagan Said:
    7:46 pm 

    That comment (49) was not mine. Come join me at ReaganAction.com Lets take back the White House and Congress - join me today. American Capitalism rocks!

  51. 51
    Power Planters Said:
    11:20 pm 

    Obama will be rapping a much different tune if coal indeed were to go bankrupt. The Whitehouse might have a backup generator, but the rest of DC will get awful dark without coal.

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