TALKING WITH HAMAS
Word has leaked out that the new Obama Administration will likely open a channel of communications of some kind with Hamas. There is no word whether they plan on opening a dialogue with American Nazis, Kluxers, skin heads, or other groups in the US who also wish to kill all the Jews but I’m sure they will eventually get around to it.
After all, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Or, what’s good for Jew haters in Gaza should be fine for the Jew haters here.
The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon George Bush’s doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.
The move to open contacts with Hamas, which could be initiated through the US intelligence services, would represent a definitive break with the Bush presidency’s ostracising of the group. The state department has designated Hamas a terrorist organisation, and in 2006 Congress passed a law banning US financial aid to the group.
The Guardian has spoken to three people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp. There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive. A tested course would be to start contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services, similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.
Perhaps the Obama Administration could set up some kind of cabinet level “Czar” like they have for the War on Drugs or the auto industry. Sort of like Obama’s Personal Ambassador to the Anti-Semites of the world. Not only could we have outreach programs here in the states for our very own homegrown Jew haters, but think of the possibilities abroad. There’s Iran, of course. They’re at the top of the list. Then we have Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbullah, the old war horses at the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (include the PFLP-General Command and Syrian toady Ahmad Jibril in that mix), and several other Palestinian organizations.
This Jew Hater’ Czar’s portfolio would be quite extensive. You’d also have the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, al-Qaeda (and their numerous offshoots), as well as several far left groups here and in Europe.
The point being, if you’re going to talk with a group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews, why stop with Hamas? I’m sure the American Nazis will feel slighted if you talk to foreigners and not engage them in the dialogue of “Hope and Change.”
I can certainly understand Obama’s reluctance to talk with the Kluxers but really now, is he the type of president who is going to show favoritism toward one Jew hating group at the expense of another? Or perhaps Obama has some secret plans to talk to al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood? I’d hate to have them thinking that their Jew hatred isn’t as pure as that exhibited by a bunch of yahoos dressed up in sheets.
A word of caution for Obama before he embarks on this historic quest to try and “understand” the world’s Jew hatred - epitomized by the fanatics in Hamas; it is best you open your mind to a new vocabulary. Otherwise, we will talk right past each other which would defeat the purpose of this exercise in “peacemaking.”
When anti-Semites talk about “Jews” and “ovens” in the same sentence, they are not inviting the Israelis to take part in a Betty Crocker Bake-Off. And if Hamas happens to mention “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” they are not asking Israel to dialogue about their college experiences with comparative lit courses.
And when they scream “Death to the Jews!” at the top of their voices they mean, well, “Death to the Jews.” The Administration’s first impulse will be dismiss such threats as mere rhetorical flourishes - kind of like when Obama says that he will “heal the oceans” and such. Obama doesn’t really believe he can “heal” the seas - at least not now. He’s going to have enough trouble healing a much smaller and less significant target; the economy. So it is understandable when Hamas and other Jew haters raise their voices about killing all the Jews, he might get the idea that they’re just funnin’ around and not really all that serious about it.
So talking to Hamas is an excellent idea - if you’re an anti-Semite. Granting legitimacy to Jew haters is certainly one way to bring peace to the Middle East. It will hasten the day when the the cartographers of the world will realize full employment as the words of Iran’s President Ahmadinejad are finally made flesh and Israel is “wiped off the map.”
The only question is what are the map makers going to put in that small little white space where the word “Israel” used to be?
and of course we “did not” see this coming? wasn’t it one of hillary and mccain’s trumpet call’s?
Comment by jambrowski — 1/9/2009 @ 9:57 am
My question is, what should Obama be doing instead of talking to Hamas? The only way to really destroy Hamas is to invade Gaza with 50,000 marines and occupy it for at least 5 years. Now that may be a war well worth undertaking, but we cannot afford it right now nor does the American public desire to. Just ignoring Gaza like Bush is doing now will not work either. So really, why this anger with Obama over this? What else could he do? If he can’t get rid of Hamas, he may as well talk with them just as long as he doesn’t expect much out of it.
I know some commentators will disagree, but this situation is largely the fault of the 2005 elections in the Palestinian areas. These people are not ready for democracy; they are too poor and angry to decide their fate in a rational manner. Why did Bush and Rice push this matter and then acted all hurt and surprised when the blow-back arrived? Now we have to deal with these Jew haters!
PS-Rick, the biggest thing that I have taken away from your writing (so far) is the term “Jew hater”. It is a shocking word to use in normal conversation with people who are used to the prettified term “Anti-Semite”. Thank you for enriching the lexicon!
Comment by Surabaya Stew — 1/9/2009 @ 10:44 am
I nominate Jimmy Carter for this important position.
Comment by flmom — 1/9/2009 @ 10:46 am
What is there to talk about with Hamas anyway?
Giving them part of our treasury to cease and desist in attacking Israel? That one works well for perhaps a year or so. Siding with Hamas on Israel giving up the rest of their land, piece at a time? Ensuring that all of Israel is within easy range of mortars and rockets? What?
Hamas is not seeking peace. They are seeking to destroy Israel. Israel is seeking the destruction of Hamas infrastructure in Gaza, to stop the missiles from raining on Israel.
I hear it now. “What, O Hamas, do you want to make peace,” asks Obama. “Destruction of Israel,” says Hamas.
“I see,” says Obama, “is this non-negotionable?”
“Yes”, says Hamas in a moment of absolute candor, “but, if you want to pour a few billions into Palestine real soon now (which you are running out of rather rapidly), we will go on with our attacks with a much happier face, and have far better arms that we can buy from Russia. A pause in attacks? Certainly, while you pay us enough, quickly enough, before you are broke, to arm us with some of Iran’s latest rockets as well. A better life for our people in Gaza? Oh yes, but only after we finish with Israel.”
“Oh!”, says Obama. “I, I, I, that is, ah hum, well……is there no hope for peace here?”
Hamas: “No. Not until Israel is gone!”
Or, not until Hamas is gone.
Comment by mannning — 1/9/2009 @ 10:59 am
You give Obama way too much credit. He does believe he can heal the oceans, whatever that means. He does believe his force of personality can make cold-blooded murderers come to the peace table.
The man is fucking deluded. He was duly elected, by a substantial margin, with the full knowledge he is fucking deluded. I just watched his national security presser. A chill went down my spine. Obama actually believes, as he is prone, that Panetta will be effective due to his wonderful personality. Jesus Christ. When the shit storm comes down, and I’m certain it will, Obama and the Democrats won’t be able to blame Bush. It will be on their collective heads, and if the MSM tries to spin it into a Cuban missile crisis “success” they will fail.
Comment by jackson1234 — 1/9/2009 @ 11:44 am
What is sad about this is that many of my co-religionists will nod their head and say, “well, you don’t make peace without talking to your enemies.” It’s funny how us Jews, so intelligent in so many areas, have this reflex when it comes to Israel. I did not understand how many, including my lovely wife, could pull the lever for a man whose middle east advisors were universally anti-Israel. Rahm? Maybe he can save Obama from himself, but I’m skeptical.
Comment by Random Electron — 1/9/2009 @ 11:54 am
manning #4: …giving them part of our treasury to cease and desist in attacking Israel?
flmom #3: I nominate Jimmy Carter for this important position.
me: Worked (mostly) for Egypt.
Comment by Me — 1/9/2009 @ 12:13 pm
Rick, how do you distinguish between Jew Haters, and people who are just sick of the bullshit?
Weeeellll…if you come out publicly like Hamas, Osama, the Kluxers, Neo Nazis, Hezbullah, and say “Kill all the Jews” you are either a Jew Hater or trying to tell a very bad joke.
Um…which do you think, Chucky?
ed.
Comment by Chuck Tucson — 1/9/2009 @ 12:27 pm
Hey, let’s make a mountain out of a molehill.
If, as you and I expect, Hamas spouts off their usual rhetoric, then the conversation will be short.
As has been said before, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. On 1/8/09, in an interview on NPR, Palestinian philosopher Sari Nusseibeh spoke well about the issue. One quote stood out for me: “…we don’t seem to have internally, as Palestinians, been very clever at putting together the institutions of the state as we dreamed one day we would be able to.”
The Palestinian people were ill-served by the Palestinian Authority and Fatah, and now they have brought Hamas upon themselves. But someday, somewhere, we may find someone who can be crazy and savvy enough to give the Palestinians a vision of a state… but that person’s rise is made nearly impossible by the internal factions and the manipulation of the Palestinians by external forces, that is, the Arab States and Israel.
I think it’s worth having even a very short conversation with Hamas. It’s not like they will gain any credibility by having a channel to the US Government- they have none.
The channels that need to be stopped are the channels that provide Qassam rockets free of charge to Hamas. The cowardly countries that have outsourced their attack on Israel are not the friends of the Palestinians.
Comment by Postagoras — 1/9/2009 @ 12:54 pm
Before Barry “O” expends too much energy yapping to these terrorists, he might wnat to read parts of their OFFICIAL CHARTER, like say…..
Article 13:
“(Peace) Initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.”
and….
“There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiative, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.”
Good Luck Barry “O”!
Comment by Alan Davidson — 1/9/2009 @ 1:42 pm
Meh. The bullshit benefits the Jew Haters and the Non Jew Haters alike. Israel uses the bullshit to get their massive handout from the US, and Arab countries use it to distract their people from their horrible oppressive governments. It will never end.
Comment by Chuck Tucson — 1/9/2009 @ 2:09 pm
I don’t see why we’d want to start talking to people we don’t like. Not when our current policy of refusing to talk to people we don’t like has been such a stunning success.
By the way, does anyone know whether Fidel has finally died a peaceful death in his own bed? How about the Iranian theocrats? Still around, are they? They haven’t evaporated from the withering heat of our silent treatment?
The policy of wishing problems away is ineffective. We made progress by talking to the Chinese, not by ignoring them. And the Chinese were no bundle of fun under Mao. Diplomacy can occasionally be effective. So can armed force. Neither is always effective.
You do what works. Which sometimes means trying a lot of different things. Like diplomacy. And if that doesn’t work, well then, it doesn’t work. So you try something else.
Comment by michael reynolds — 1/9/2009 @ 2:10 pm
re: #7 Me:
Really? How do you think that insurgents, arms, ammo, rockets, explosives, and supplies get into Gaza? Could it be through the tunnels into Gaza and Palestine from Egypt? Do you believe that Egypt is ignorant of the supplies that flow through their country to Hamas?
Egypt wants the golden thread to the US to remain attached, but otherwise, will support Hamas under the table, and claim deniability of any wrong-doing.
Egypt is the birthplace of the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahabbism. That should tell you something about how most Egyptians think. A 50 billion dollar per year bribe from the US is going down the tubes there, in my opinion.
Just how many such nation bribes can we afford, simply to constrain such people from attacking Israel–until they are good and ready, as before in ‘73? We do ship boatloads of money to Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, and Egypt, as well as Israel, to promote peace and prosperity in the region.
Now we are getting the payback for an ineffective bribery policy, and it will get worse, in my opinion. Very little of all this money trickles down to the level of the ordinary citizen in these nations. But they do manage to buy the tools of war, don’t they?
Could it be that we are indirectly financing the retooling of the ME for war because of our humanitarian idealism and the wiles of the ME mentality? It has been a sort of “when in doubt, spend money” philosophy with few checks and balances on where the river of dollars go.
Comment by mannning — 1/9/2009 @ 2:48 pm
Correction: The origin of Whahabbism is not in Egypt, perhaps more in Saudi Arabia, from what I can read, but this cult has made significant inroads into the population of Egypt, and was apparently the mind behind the Muslim Brotherhood.
Comment by mannning — 1/9/2009 @ 3:12 pm
Again a correction: We have given the Egyptians 50 billion dollars since 1975, not that amount per year. Still, that is a lot of money washing ashore in Cairo.
Comment by mannning — 1/9/2009 @ 3:18 pm
So if I write me charter thusly:
Article 1: In order to for me to even start negotiating with MIcheal Reynolds, he needs to be dead…..
You’ll find that a successful point to start negotiations?
Sorry Reynolds, but you’re a weakling.
Comment by libocrat — 1/9/2009 @ 3:58 pm
Manning, you need not worry. Opie Obama will send Rodham-Clinton to Egypt and the Red Sea will part!! Maybe he can send Madeline Albright with basketballs and chocolates too!! Next Rodham will sit down with the Mullahs in Iran and chat over Tea and Beheadings. Those Mullahs will abandon their twisted Religion in a show of solidarity with Opie Obama. Dogs will play with cats and Al Qaeda will hold a memorial service for the USS COLE victims.
Liberals believe such nonsense.
Comment by libocrat — 1/9/2009 @ 4:03 pm
libocrat
No they don’t.
Comment by Chuck Tucson — 1/9/2009 @ 5:27 pm
libocrat,
I think the Rodham-Clinton crack might have been a bit of a low blow. Remember when our side sent Karen “these pearls will cover up my Adam’s apple” Hughes around the world to promote “pro-American sentiment” with her “rapid response units”? You’re right it was not a huge success.
My point is that our Conservative Administration has tried things every bit as silly as “basketballs and chocolates”, and, they haven’t worked either.
Comment by bs jones — 1/9/2009 @ 5:47 pm
Before people get overheated, I’d like to get back to the question ‘is it in our national interest to have a significant portion of the Muslim world constantly against us?’. Hamas might not be such a monolithic bloc as sometimes assumed:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,600349,00.html
I don’t have much sympathy for Hamas but I don’t see anything wrong in trying to support the current Egyptian-led initiative as Condi Rice is doing. That would include Hamas BTW.
I would agree because war, while sometimes the answer, has its limits in this situation. Israel was not seeking to “defeat” or “punish” Hamas in the classic sense. They were simply trying to degrade the ability of Hamas to hurt their citizens. In this, they have been successful and it may be time for the Egypt-France initiative to move to the forefront.
As for your question about Muslims hating us, unless you have some evidence that they would not hate us if Israel didn’t exist or if we supported the Palestinians, it is a moot point. There are other bones of contention, not the least of which is our support for various kleptocracies and brutal kingdoms in the Arab world over the years - more a cold war hangover than anything. But even if we overthrew them all, I find no evidence that we would be any less disliked.
You can’t simply make a statement that the Arabs wouldn’t hate us if we were more even handed or didn’t support Israel. It may seem like common sense but history doesn’t work like that. In order to do so, you have to posit a counterfactual. And if you read Niall Ferguson’s Virtual History, you would see the problems with that path.
ed.
Comment by funny man — 1/9/2009 @ 7:08 pm
Part of the Muslim world will always hate us (the ‘West’ in general) no matter how even handed we act, that is true. However, I also believe that the Palestinians were sold out by many in the past years e.g. their own Arab “brothers”, the Iranians and the Muslim Brotherhood. That had tragic consequences for many because, believe it or not, there are also innocent desperate Palestinians worthy our sympathy (and it is with them in mind that I want a fair solution; I couldn’t care less if the extremist Islamists are driven into the sea). So eventually there has to be a two state solution (or should be) and the majority in Israel would agree with that. The majority of Israelis is also not in agreement with some of the religious freaks of the settlers and neither should we. We should try to find a fair two state solution that is all I’m saying.
Now concerning the ‘Arab world”, I do believe that they feel disrespected. For the most part that has nothing to do with Israel or the West but with a society that has difficulties transforming itself. They feel they were once superior (true more than a thousand years ago) but now ‘lost’ it. That is a dangerous psychological mix that is not going to go away anytime soon. However, as I stated before we should give the sensible elements reason to be on our side and I also want to tell you that I agree with a lot of your analysis though.
Comment by funny man — 1/9/2009 @ 8:32 pm
Goddamn, Rick… I’m not sure how to posit a counterfactual. But I promise I’m going to use that in a meeting tomorrow (I hope nobody asks me what it means).
Comment by lionheart — 1/9/2009 @ 8:45 pm
I suppose it all depends on whose words you believe. Degrading Hamas to virtually zero was a stated objective.
In that, I suggest, they have not succeeded, nor have they been able yet to prevent Hamas from resuming rocket attacks after any so-called peace settlement has been agreed, because that would require the destruction of the military arm of Hamas and the supply sources such as Iran and supply lines for Hamas’ military operations from Egypt, not to mention the abandonment of the long term objectives of Hamas itself.
I further suggest that one of their real objectives is to turn the Gaza population against Hamas, not for the love of Israel, of course, but to stop the bloodshed and destruction in Gaza caused by Hamas to begin with, in many Gazian eyes. This has not yet happened, either, and is probably a forlorn hope.
The war goes on.
Comment by mannning — 1/9/2009 @ 8:55 pm
FYI-
Counterfactual: the time indicated by the tense morpheme and the time denoted by the co-occurring temporal adverb do not match.
Suppose that Mary’s birthday is tomorrow, but her boyfriend John thought it was yesterday and gave flowers to her yesterday. Mary was so disappointed that John was mistaken about her birthday and she was not even pleased with the flowers she received. If John had given flowers to Mary TOMORROW, she would have been pleased. Therefore if we assume that the “same thing” happens tomorrow instead of yesterday, then Mary is pleased then (i.e., tomorrow). Note here that since Mary is already disappointed, it is too late for John to do the “same thing” (i.e., giving flowers to Mary) again tomorrow and please Mary. Put another way, two times are competing for the time of John’s giving
flowers to Mary, and the time at which this actually took place must be located in the past. E.g.: If John had given flowers to Mary TOMORROW, she would have been pleased. (Credit to Toshiyuki Ogihara).
At least now I know what it means.
Comment by lionheart — 1/9/2009 @ 9:18 pm
Libocrat:
Were you to write something coherent I’d respond.
Comment by michael reynolds — 1/9/2009 @ 11:33 pm
I love to be right all the time. All the conservative phonies who called me a racist for pointing out that Barry IS a racist are now shocked, SHOCKED, at this sh….stuff. “How could Barry talk to Hamas???” Uhmmm, maybe the Wright thing had something to do with this? Naaaa. Barry said he was through with that, an sh*t, and that was good enough for all you idiots. Great job, boyz…
Comment by JWS — 1/9/2009 @ 11:42 pm
For a little balance, I’d recommend some reading (and perhaps disagreeing) with:
http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2009/01/03/if-i-were-israels-pm/
Comment by funny man — 1/10/2009 @ 12:26 am
Not a bad strategy by Obabma. He hasn’t mentioned when the talks will begin or what the subject will be. If by then there is no one left to talk to then it is just too bad
By saying he is willing to talk Obama wins both ways. The Arabs don’t go apeshit about the leader of the free world not caring about them while not putting any pressure on Israel to actually do anything other than what it is already doing. Give the man some credit people.
http://soleslide.blogspot.com
Comment by VK — 1/10/2009 @ 3:45 pm
Chuck,
“Meh. The bullshit benefits the Jew Haters and the Non Jew Haters alike. Israel uses the bullshit to get their massive handout from the US, and Arab countries use it to distract their people from their horrible oppressive governments. It will never end.”
I am sure if your house comes under rocket attack, you’d call it bullshit too. or react with a “meh.”
Your joke about Israel getting a massive handout was a nice touch. As though without this “handout”, a people who have given 159 Nobel prize winners, introduced the innovation of drip irrigation to the world ( remember they live in a fricking desert ?) and has a per capita GDP of about 31,767$.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1188197182339
What is a 5billion dollar “handout” to an economy that produces 161 billion$ GDP ? and without the oil supplies of course ?
Chuck, get your facts square before talking about “handouts”. I actually wish that this was completely stopped - of course this would nt change a damned thing in that wretched part of the world - but at the very least it would nt give people a convenient stick to beat Israel with.
Stopping the money wouldnt stop the hatred in the heart of the average Palestinian for Israel.
Comment by Nagarajan Sivakumar — 1/10/2009 @ 6:42 pm
“The only question is what are the map makers going to put in that small little white space where the word “Israel” used to be?”
Don’t worry Rick, the UN is already addressed that problem.
http://www.eyeontheun.org/view.asp?l=21&p=142#02
Comment by Mike Bell — 1/11/2009 @ 5:16 pm
Reviewing the 2008 Weblog Awards Finalists: “Best Conservative Blog” Category…
Here is my third (and final) post in a series of unfair, sloppy, and intellectually lazy reviews of blogs that are finalists in the 2008 Weblog Awards. And to top it off, I’m posting it after voting has already been open for six days and has on…
Trackback by The Skepticrats — 1/11/2009 @ 11:42 pm
[...] Obama to talk with Hamas? - Rick Moran (Right Wing Nut House) [...]
Pingback by Greatest Hits: Jan. 12, 2009 - Whatever Is Right — 1/12/2009 @ 11:06 am
The loudest and most radical jew haters are not in Gaza, not in Riyadh,not in Cario, but in “Berkeley. Its quite ironic that the far left has become the new Neo nazis. The far left has melded with the far right. Whats next–white robes on campus. Free speech is dead on campus, campus radicals say, “their way or the highway”. Tolerance and understanding is dead on most college campuses. The truly sad thing is we pay for this.
Comment by Ron Russell — 1/15/2009 @ 4:32 pm
Ron Russell,
I think you exaggerate quite a bit. If all of Israels problem were a few students in Berkeley, that would be a happy moment.
Comment by funny man — 1/15/2009 @ 5:15 pm
BTW, just in case you haven’t noticed, most students in Berkeley are Asians (60s are sort of over)
Comment by funny man — 1/15/2009 @ 5:16 pm